What winning means for the draft / future building

Possible RT prospects at the next level:

Experienced mid round Tackles will be hard to come by but a guy like Lavergne or Kuppe might stick around and be worth a pick.

George Foster – Georgia 6’6” 325, Strong player who can handle both guard or tackle equally well.
Damien Lavergne - Louisiana Tech 6-6, 345, A project with lots of size and upside.
Jake Kuppe - Minnesota 6’ 7” 340, Tough kid with good motor and decent footwork.


It does seem that there is better value at taking a Guard and working him into RT over time.

Montrae Holland - Florida St 6’3” 330, Mauler with a mean streak. Uses his hands well.
Derrick Dockery - Texas 6’5”, 335, Pretty good feet for his size. Solid run blocker.
Sherko Haji-Rasouli - Miami 6’5” 320, Very smart solid blocker who is learning quickly.
Kevin Breedlove - Georgia 6’4” 313, Overachiever who does not make mistakes.
Torrin Tucker – Southern Mississippi 6’6” 310, Tackle/Guard prospect with solid ability.
Rex Richards - Texas Tech 6’4” 330, Hard worker with very good footwork (stock is rising).

 

Don't forget that Coop was drafted in the safety (strong) position. I can't see why we couldn't try him there as long as he's healthy. I'm not saying take him from special teams, but use him more in the SS position!

 

Canteen - I'd rather work backwards, get a guy experienced at tackle and convert him if necessary. The value is better at G but the chances of him making impact at T are much smaller.

Lavergne's such a project. Foster'd be nice.



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So now Vince Wilfork's come out. Anyone think he'll impact our draft? He will hopefully help chum the waters in respect to DT, but he himself shouldn't go before us, unless we won the last three. I just hope that both Kennedy and Joseph can go before us, and that'd take Texas' cooperation. It'd be a huge stretch to see them draft a RB or a lineman, which would also help us.

 

Understood on that first point. What do you think about taking one of the top Centers in the 3rd or 4th to groom behind Mitchell and backup Donnalley. We might get better value with our second 4th with a Center then a Guard.

About Wilfork impacting our draft:
IMO 6 players are as good as gone in front of us - - -
Palmer, Leftwich, Rogers, R. Williams, Kennedy, Wilfork (is coming out and has apparently moved ahead of teammate Joseph who’s lack luster play of late is causing his stock to fall). It seems to me that Wilfork is taking his teammates place in the draft order and Joseph could easily drop below where we will pick.
Two teams (Seattle and Arizona) will probably pick right in front of us and could very well be the key to the path we take.
Seattle could take Joseph Ragone or Manning.
Arizona could take Ragone Manning A. Johnson or even one of the top RBs MaGahee or L. Johnson.
That will leave us with one of the 6 guys above to choose from.
If one of those QBs is available I hope we avoid them since neither would be significantly better than a few other QBs that would be around in the 3rd or possibly even 4th round IMO.
With Jenkins Buckner and Burton I agree with your opinion that we just don’t "need" to take a top DT like Joseph if he’s still there.
WR A Johnson does not strike me as being significantly better than a few other WRs like Woods or Watts for instance.
That leaves us with RB and at least one of those 2 promising and very productive players. Assuming the worst; Foster won’t get back to 100% and L Smith won’t return, a top RB becomes a high priority and I like those two a lot.

Taking either MaGahee or L. Johnson could do what #5 overall 2001 pick Tomlinson has done for San Diego and we would be set at RB.
In the 2nd round either Woods Watts or Gabriel should still be available where we pick and any of those guys could eventually become our #1 WR.
In the 3rd we need O-line depth and any number of decent Guards should still be on the block as will a few good Centers. Any O-lineman would of course be a project and many Guards and Centers can learn the neighboring position over time.
In the 4th we take our next young QB project. Thank God there is so much promising talent in this QB class. I am confident that Fox and company will bring in a competent QB evaluator and coach and we will get a guy like Banks Boller Dorsey or Lorenzen, any of which could easily be there with our first pick in the 4th.
If we can come away with 4 guys, 2 that can contribute in 2003 (MaGahee and Watts) and 2 that can be ready in 2004 (Boller and a G/T like Richards or Tucker) then I would think it’s a good "San Diego 2001" type draft without having to trade a Vick away to the damn Falcons.)

 

Depends.
Just looking at need, you can tell that if Nesbit goes we'll need a backup center. Louis Williams probably isn't a guy who'd start if for any reason other than injury, so an upgrade could certainly help.
But Mitchell's fairly young, and at a fair price, so he'll be staying unless he trips over his dog while trying to pistolwhip a member of his family or busts his head open trying to use the phone to call out a hit on his mistress. Yes, I'm not ruling it out.

Still, getting a backup center and a potential starting guard for 2004 (Donnalley is 20 games away from free agency, and you'd imagine, possible retirement or not being asked back) in one swoop should be a nice goal, especially if we're smart and buy a RT and even if we keep Nesbit.

Al johnson of Wisconsin is one guy who certainly has pro potential and a 3rd round type tag, and since he's having trouble getting to the second level (i.e. linebackers, since I'll be referencing that term a lot in the coming months) he may fit better at G anyway. But then he'll be less mobile on our trapping plays. Great size, strength, ability to get leverage. I don't know about his smarts but I like a smart center. He's not as good a run blocker as his cousin Ben, a guy I like at RT, but his leverage and strength suggest he could still be a decent LG with a year to learn.

Then there's Romberg, the short, squatty Miami center who I believe is Outland bound. He's only 6'2, which is OK for a center and some rather enjoy a smaller center since there's less head on contact, but at G it could be a small detriment. He's a lot better at being a center than Johnson, beng quick to the second level and pulling and getting to where he needs to help. He's probably the smartest lineman coming out this year that's a worthwhile draft prospect but probably not for guard thanks to his size (obviously I've never gotten a look at him up close, but I'd probably expect that he can't support more than 300 and he's not as strong as most guards at his value).

Ben Claxton is very similar but doesn't have the athleticism. BC's Dan Koppen is about the same as well, but both lack the pedigree. It'd be a waste to note much about them.

Alonzo Ephraim has the size and athleticism, has a lot of upside, but has only started two years and came in raw. Was all SEC, not a slight accomplishment. But he's really not experienced at pass protection and therefore would be less of an asset at G. He's a lot like Nesbit, basically, but with better ability blocking against the run (coming in, Nesbit was very raw and while most liked his measurables, I believe the knock was that he wasn't a good fit for the pros) and less experience. He's rated lower, right now, from what I've heard and read, and would be somewhat of a project, but he certainly does have the right features to be that backup G/C who could play in a year. Big problem so far has been a lack of consistency and that would suggest that there's risk of occasional mental breakdown. That would probably suit him better at G.

Gene Mruczkowski (had to paste in the name - until he becomes an impact player, not much point in remembering his name like I did with TJ Houshmanzadeh) has experience at both LG and C, and I've read from a few online scouts that he has an innate sense about playing line, or various things off that. Smart as well, and athletic, but he'll have to learn techniques to keep from being bullrushed because he lacks the ability to get much bigger (6'2.5 or so, 300) and lacks the leg strength I'd like. He's a 5th or 6th round guy dependent basically on that fact, whether he can anchor well.

 

>>About Wilfork impacting our draft:
IMO 6 players are as good as gone in front of us - - -
Palmer, Leftwich, Rogers, R. Williams, Kennedy, Wilfork (is coming out and has apparently moved ahead of teammate Joseph who’s lack luster play of late is causing his stock to fall). It seems to me that Wilfork is taking his teammates place in the draft order and Joseph could easily drop below where we will pick. <<<

that tends to make sense, and it's what I was thinking. I could hope that two DT go in front of us, yes. I'd probably put Johnson above Williams, though, because in workouts his route running should stand out.


>>If one of those QBs is available I hope we avoid them since neither would be significantly better than a few other QBs that would be around in the 3rd or possibly even 4th round IMO.

I'd say not much better than the 2nd, but the upside on them is still higher. Once you get to the 3rd you're either going with projects or guys who are as good as they'll get.

>>WR A Johnson does not strike me as being significantly better than a few other WRs like Woods or Watts for instance.

There's an amount of explosion there that's lacking with those two you get with Johnson. Woods will probably not be there in the second, now. It's up to guys like Jacobs in the second, I'd gather.

your idea of waiting until the 2nd day is probably going to sour in my mind only because we've done that twice now and gotten nothing. There's certainly merit to the idea that we don't need a first round pick there, but first or second unless we're buying an acknowledged starter like King.
The RB aspect is an interesting one and would certainly strive to solve our RB problem (and overall, most good RBs in this league have been higher picks). So it's hard to argue against it, but right now I probably wouldn't.

 

Thanks for the input magnus . . . good stuff. I'm really hoping that a guy like Nesbit will fall for us in late 4 or even 5 and we can get a decent FA or two to immediately bolster our line. By all accounts OT is not worth the early pick it would take this year.
I am thinking RB might be our best bet at 8-10 in the 1st. I know that Dallas wants MaGahee or L Johnson but unless we win more than 1 more this year we will pick ahead of them. In a word do any of you guys think there is a more logical way to go than RB in the 1st round if Foster does not receive a glowing prognosis by draft time?

 

>>By all accounts OT is not worth the early pick it would take this year.

Well, I have good faith with a guy like Pashos or Ofenheusle to start for us by year's end and do well at RT, but the cost would be high for Pashos and Ofenheusle will probably go a round later. We would have trouble finding the ability to get the value we'd get at a skill position.

>>In a word do any of you guys think there is a more logical way to go than RB in the 1st round if Foster does not receive a glowing prognosis by draft time?

Well, considering that we can platoon and pick up a midlevel FA the way we did last year, I think so. If we didn't already have big future and current needs at WR AND QB, it'd be doable. I'm not at all tied to the fact that Foster was a 2nd so we don't need another high pick, as much as that I think that a first round pick would be a feature back and I don't think we'll need a feature back.

Would be great, certainly. But I'd rather have a guy dynamic in the passing game as a receiver or QB, because chances are with this offense it'll be up to his skills rather than dynamic playcalling or decisions that'll make the passing game go. And we cannot win without some decent form of passing game.

In other words I'd feel a lot better about a first round RB if we could go out and get an above average starter at QB and WR in the draft, and then I'd go RB and WR or RB, OT, WR since we wouldn't be able to afford line help otherwise.

 

It's adouble edged sword IMO. On one side, there's draft position...on the other, the desire to win and at least make an impact on someone elses post season other than handing them another W.
To me the latter is more important, you gotta play the game to win. Now, that doesn't mean we shouldn't see what we have in some guys either.
I will add, I DO NOT agree with shuffling QB's. Don't like it in college and like it even less in the Pro's. Unless a QB gets hurt or just plain stinking up the joint and of course blow outs...he should stay in the game.
The impact on the draft is not that important to me, I just want to see some attitude developed in what we have or will have returning anyway. Then we can worry about who to add where.
Love talking draft possibilities, but I know it's all just speculation.