The Plan - dammit

I think magnus is referring to 'market' value versus value to the front office of the Panthers. Using this definition of value, did miami pay too much for Howard and James, or did they match the market?

I still think that mags is mistaken about us wanting him. We didn't want him that badly.

 

There is no "market value." Each team determines what they are willing to pay each particular player.

 

that's not negotiation. That's having a set price. Negotiation, yet again, is when two sides haggle over an end result, not when a team says "this is all we're doing and we won't budge." That's an offer, you dig?

>>If you are afraid to walk away from the table, you lose.

You're not at all versed in the ideals of sports business, it seems. You're not talking about buying this car v/s that car, you're talking about a specific person. With specific traits that often aren't matched in other alternatives.

And there is such a thing as market value. The Panthers were well below it for most contracts they offered - it got them a steal in Short. It also got them, in principle, a guy who couldn't start for Cincy and has much less talent, for a similar contract to what they offered their own starting FS. So you catch a $20 whore for $45, because $45 was what you had to spend and you couldn't afford $50 out of principle.




>>I still think that mags is mistaken about us wanting him. We didn't want him that badly.

That's fine, I'm willing to stand on my observations. But I can't write him off as some castoff never-will-be just because he didn't sign - that we didn't up the offer to keep him? Sure. We didn't want him so bad that we did that. Doesn't mean we didn't want him.
And then there's the other mess - if we wanted him, he would've signed for less, or the tried and false "no one else wanted him", even though he told the Skins and Rams he wouldn't negotiate with them.

Nonetheless, I wasn't going to only petition for Grant - I often said that if an upgrade were possible, we should do it. We severely downgraded and that's the major concern at this point.

 

I find it hard to believe that you really think I meant that the Panthers should go in with a single number and never budge from it. You go in with a rough number in your head and you generally do not stray from that. At least, you do not if you are a good negotiator.

Sports negotiations are no different than any other type of negotiation - including for a car. In the coldest sense, players are nothing but parts. Some parts are made to higher precision than others, but you don't always want to buy the best parts. Sometimes less than the best will do - especially when you have a budget. If your business strategy is to move furniture, you don't go buy a bunch of Ferraris.

The hole in your argument is that you assume that the Panthers felt that they could get a player that was the same as Grant for what they were willing to pay Grant, but I highly doubt that this is what they think. One option is that they feel that over the life of the contract, that they can replace Grant with someone (or someones as the case may be) that would be better for those years. Say Grant grades out to a 7 every year for 3 years for a total of 21. And the Panthers replace him with 2 guys - the first grades out to a 6 and the 2nd at 8 each year. That equals 22. So form that perspective they upgraded.

Or it could be that they felt that Grant was only ever going to be a 7 and they were willing to have a year at 6.5 to get and 8 guy.

And there is no such thing as market value. Sure, there is a general range at which people who perform a certain skill at a certain level can expect to be paid, but the value of any particular person - no matter what the job - is what they accept to do it.

 

i think if you look at cornerback this year you can see market value, and the market paid guys more than most of us think reasonable given the talent level of particular players. when a position is in high demand and there are a limited # of quality products - the market value goes up. i understand what you are saying to a point, but bidding wars for a limited # of quality players determines the market value of the position doesn't it? its harder to determine market value for deon's position because there isn't as much demand, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. if deon had been a cb at his skill level it would have been easier to determine his value to the market this year. we didn't think he was worth the $ jax paid so i could easily say we didn't think he was worth his market value and thats all there is to it, just like you say there is no market value - only what you accept to do a job - market value is a concept that helps you make predictions and understand trends and events - and that's what makes it useful.

 

I'm going to put away the whole money/value argument. You've challenged me many a time on this, and we simply feel different about it, regardless of what or why.


But in the end?

>>So form that perspective they upgraded.

Sure, if they had guys who were a "6". I have no reason to suspect that any of these players are as good or will ever be as good as Grant. I think your supposition that I felt the team felt (sigh) that they could get equal value for Grant for less money, is wrong. I straight out feel like the team felt it could do worse at safety, and still be fine.

>>Or it could be that they felt that Grant was only ever going to be a 7 and they were willing to have a year at 6.5 to get and 8 guy.

Like I said. I'd be willing to upgrade from Grant. He never ended up being the playmaker, but I do feel he was on the verge of becoming said playmaker - regardless. I didn't want to downgrade for the sake of not being willing to make the 2% difference that a player pleaded to have matched. In the end, I was willing to accept a mild downgrade at good value - and we passed on those players. Now we're stuck at a pretty hefty downgrade at this point.

 

Without question, this is going to be the fun thing to watch this summer.

I have to pull for Branch, for obvious reasons. All the talk about his brain and lack of athleticism is kinda troubling.

Anybody have his combine / workout numbers?

 

"Is she pretty?"
"She has a good personality."

6-0 203

CAMPUS AGILITY TESTS
Timed at 4.62 in the 40-yard dash … 390-pound bench press … 36½-inch vertical jump.
COMBINE AGILITY TESTS
ARM HAND TEST 40 20 10 225 VJ BJ
31¼ 9½ 23 4.38 2.56 1.46 22 36 9'11"

Positives: Has good size, speed, quickness and body control … Gets good depth in his backpedal, planting and driving while flipping his hips properly in transition … Has a quick short-area burst and the acceleration to close on the ball … Has the leaping ability to compete for the ball … Tough, aggressive tackler who does not hesitate to come up and support against the run … Shows classic tackling form, staying low in his pads while extending his arms to wrap and secure while driving back with his legs.

Negatives: Lacks the top-end speed to cover deep … Slips at times coming out of his breaks due to poor balance … Raw in man coverage, as he will bite on fakes, double moves and play action … Needs better zone awareness, as he tends to follow the receiver too far, taking himself out of position … Lacks natural hands for the interception … Needs to refine his footwork (keeps his base too narrow) … Does not play off blocks well, getting engulfed as he does not always use his hands to keep blockers out of his body.

Linky

 

4.38 in the combine, vs. 4.62 on campus?

36.5 vertical.
22 reps is as much as frikkin Nelson.

Hell, he looks like a good athlete to me.

 

More than Nelson.

Somewhat athletic. Depends, mostly, on whether his 4.4 was bullshit or if he can use it. Because his 10s and 20s aren't remarkable - and you don't want a safety who's best used chasing the shit out of somebody.

I didn't honestly know he ran a 4.62 at school. Oops. if that's true, or rather if that's more indicative of how fast he is, then we fucked up big time not taking Holt.