The best explanation of "HELL" that I've found

Forgive me if that's the way I'm coming across. That is not my intention. I did a study on this issue a few years ago with a wide open mind, honestly because I did not know what happened when people die. After reading through every relevant passage I could find, I found the most likely (but not certain) conclusion was that the saved probably are taken to heaven, while the unsaved remain until Judgment Day. But even if the spirits of the saints are not swept up to heaven the instant the body dies, they are surely (according to 1Thess) called to heaven by Jesus Himself at the second coming.

 

Turbo, I've looked at 6 different translations of Luke 23:43, and they all have the comma in the same place -- indicating that the thief would not be waiting until His return. I've also read a commentary that agrees with that position.

The problem is, Jesus' words (as translated into modern English) seem to contradict one another, as you've pointed out. If we rule out the possibility that Jesus made the thief a promise He could not keep (He knew He'd be in the tomb for 3 days), then I see basically three options:

1) When Jesus said "me" on the cross, He included the entire Trinity. Therefore, the thief could have risen to be with the Father. Jesus message to Thomas Didymus saying He and the Father were one supports this possibility. This scenario would also maintain the validity of Jesus' encounter with Mary M. in John 20 that you cited.

2) Jesus defined "day" on His terms, not necessarily ours. In this case, perhaps the thief did ascend with Him several weeks after His resurrection.

3) The comma in the English translations is misplaced. This would support the notion that "me" is Jesus alone, and that the integrity of Jesus' dialogue with Mary in John 20 remains intact. However, for this to be true, every English translation of the Bible I know of has got it wrong.

I think any one of the three is possible. I just think option 1 is most likely.

And for the record, if the translations are correct, the thief is the only one who's promised to go to heaven the day he dies. To assert that same promise applies universally to believers is an assumption, not a direct promise. I don't think I ever said that all believers definitely go to heaven the instant they die. If I did, I misspoke and I apologize.

 

Does this hold true even after signing with the panthers?

 

If Jesus was only Himself, yes. But Jesus and the Father are one, and the Father remains in heaven. The argument then would be, why then didn't He tell the thief, 'Today you will be with my Father in heaven.'? Either way, it's a pickle.

The passage I quoted from Revelation denounces any possibility that people destined for hell go anywhere before Judgment Day at the end of the millenial reign. The passage in 1Thess 4 indicates that at least some of the believers will ascend into heaven at the second coming. Those passages are pretty clear, I think. But is it really out of the realm of possibility that God might accept a few special people early? Elijah was caught up to heaven early. Scripture also indicates Moses did, too. (I believe Jesus talks to both on the Mount of Transfiguration). Why not the thief who, while being crucified, declares the innocence of Jesus and asks Him for mercy and forgiveness?

 

Agreed, but why would that be contrary to the Rapture of the church?

Agreed.

Ahh. Okay. The description Jesus gives of His return is "like a thief in the night", which doesn't mean silent, necessarily. It just means that it'll be without warning, i.e. no predicted date and time. And the description given there (I think) is also "in an instant". Therefore it could conceivably happen so fast that all the believers are gone before anyone else knows what happened.

 

More accurately, it's used to describe what happens in 1Thess 4 -- the gathering of the church by Jesus "into the air".

Yes, but the indication is that He appears after the church is raptured. Passages in Revelations speak of the saints who have gone before returning with Him.

That could be when He actually returns to earth, or when He raptures the church. I would lean toward the former rather than the latter. But in either case, "secret" doesn't necessarily mean "silent". 'Surprise' is a much better word, IMO.

That is when He assumes His reign over the planet. Yes, it will be a glorious event, and probably coincides with the descent of the New Jerusalem.

When those who are left standing against Him realize they've chosen the wrong side, they will be terror stricken. How could they not be? It's not like He's returning as a humble carpenter from Nazareth.

That is the event that signals the end of the millenial reign and the beginning of Judgment Day.

Yes, and the rapture will be the introduction to that glorious return.

 

That's a good question, and speaks strongly to the point I made earlier about at least some believers lying in wait until the second coming. The more I think about this, the more I'm starting to think that the thief was another 'exception to the rule' like Moses and Elijah, and most saints must wait to join Him until the rapture.

My point!

An interesting parallel I've not seen before. I agree -- a precedent has been set.

This is why trying to understand end times prophecy is so difficult. I've found a handful of passages that point in one direction, then one pops up that points the other. Yet neither can be disregarded.

No worries, Turbo. End times study is a big can of worms, isn't it?

As do you for me, Dave. Congrats to your brother and SIL, and I'll be looking forward to your responses next week.

 

Thanks Hasbeen. It was a good time this weekend with family and all.

As to our discussion, I guess its strayed from a discussion on hell and what happens when we die to the rapture. However, they are related so I have no problem with this. Besides, its a good discussion (even if no one else is enjoying it).

Let me share what I know about the doctrine of the rapture and its history.

During the 15th and 16th centuries, the church that was so dominate during the middle ages was shaken to its very core by powerful protests of reformers from within its own ranks–John Hus, John Zwingly, Martin Luther, John Calvin, etc. Appalled by the corruption in both theology and practice that had developed within the church through the centuries, these reformers boldly identified the church itself as the antichrist and beast power predicted in the prophetic books of Daniel and Revelation 13.

Reeling from these serious and credible challenges to its theology and practices, the church convened the Council of Trent in the mid 1500's. This council explored new methodologies to counter the debilitating challenges of the Reformers which were undermining the church's credibility and authority in the public domain.

A major component of this "counter-reformation" was the publication of a commentary on the book of Revelation in 1690 by a Jesuit priest named Francisco Ribera. He proposed a method of interpretation called futurism. According to this view, the great prophecies of Daniel and Revelation did not apply to the Christian church through the ages, but were focused on the final seven years of history. In other words, the Bible's warning about the antichrist could not possibly apply to the church, but rather predicted the appearance of a lone and powerful evil person who would rule during earth's final years.

This strategy of the counter-reformation worked. In less than 300 years from Ribera's formulation of this view, futurism found a new home within Protestantism itself.

John Nelson Darby, a 19th century Irish lawyer turned Anglican preacher, developed a method of biblical interpretation called dispensationalism in which he incorporated Ribera's futuristic views. Darby became "the father of the rapture doctrine." He was the first to develop a full-blown theology that incorporated the teaching that Jesus would return secretly (His "second" coming) to rapture His true followers, leaving the rest behind to be ruled by an evil antichrist for seven years, and then return again (His "third" coming) in a visible, glorious coming to destroy antichrist, save those who were converted during the seven-year tribulation, and establish His own kingdom.

Cyrus Scofield, a disciple of Darby's, later published a Bible with explanatory notes in which he incorporated Darby's views on the rapture. The Scofield Bible is still the most popular Bible sold today.

In this way the rapture theory made its way into the psyche and formal teaching of much of the Christian world.


Five key Bible texts used to support the rapture theory:

1. John 14:1-3 - Jesus promised His followers, "I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also." This statement is used by supporters of the rapture to describe the "second" or "secret" coming of Christ referred to here when He will take His followers to heaven with Him, as distinguished from His "third" or "visible" coming after the seven-year tribulation to live on the earth during the millennium.

2. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 - Paul says that when Jesus returns, the dead will be resurrected and together with the living righteous will be "caught up" (translated raptus in Latin translations and from which comes our English term, "rapture") in the clouds to be with Jesus.


3. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 - When Jesus returns, His followers are changed from being mortal to immortal "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." Believers in the rapture theory see in this text a reference to the rapidity with which they will be transported from earth to be with Jesus in heaven, making it appear to the left-behind unbelievers that they have mysteriously disappeared.
4. Matthew 24:36-42 - Jesus says that when He returns, "Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left." This language is used to support the "secret" coming of Jesus that raptures some from the earth and leaves others behind to go on living here, hence the title of the book, Left Behind.

5. Daniel 9:27 - Concluding a major Bible prophecy covering 490 years, this verse prophesies that during the last seven years of the 490 years someone referred to as "he" will confirm a covenant with many, and that half way into that seven-year period he will bring sacrifices to an end, and that all this is connected in some way to "one who makes desolate" and causes "abominations." This language, which seems very confusing until it is studied in some depth, is used to support the idea that the antichrist will rule the earth during seven years of desolation, making a covenant with the Jews and then destroying their system of worship.

Ok, I think I've covered it well (??). In my next post, I'll answer why I think this view is incorrect (just my opinion, nothing else).

 

I forgot to write what the general doctrine of the rapture is, so that we at least know what it is we are discussing.

The Rapture Theory
While those who believe in the rapture theory differ with one another on some essential points, the mainstream views of this teaching are as follows:

1. Jesus will return to earth secretly and take to heaven all genuine Christians, leaving everyone else on earth for another seven years.

2. During those the next seven years (the "seven-year tribulation"):
a. With all the Christians now gone, an evil antichrist will rule during this period of war, desolation and tribulation
b. Early in this period the antichrist will make a treaty with the Jews, enabling them to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem and to reestablish their ancient liturgical system of animal-sacrifices.
c. Three and a half years into the seven-year period, the antichrist will turn against the Jews, desecrate their temple, and destroy the system of animal sacrifices that had been reestablished in the rebuilt temple at Jerusalem, thus initiating the Great Tribulation that will occur during the last three and a half years.
d. All the as-yet-unfulfilled prophecies in the Bible concerning the Jews will be literally fulfilled during this seven years, including the conversion of many Jews to Messiah Jesus.
e. Many non-Jews, startled into spiritual earnestness by being left behind from the rapture, will also be converted to Jesus as the true Messiah, their personal Savior.
3. At the end of the seven-year period, Jesus will return visibly and gloriously in the clouds of heaven to judge the earth. He will save those who were converted to Him during the seven-year interim between His two returns, and assign to hell all who were not.

Ok. Now I think I've got it all down. Have I missed anything?

Later this afternoon I'll give you my reasons why I don't think the Bible teaches this doctrine.

 

That sequence of events is the model for the Left Behind series. As far as what I personally believe, I just don't know. The prophecy is too vague for me as of right now. When I researched the end times 2 years ago for an essay I wrote, I found evidence in the Scriptures for pre-, mid-, and post-tribulation Rapture of the church. I even asked a couple of my pastors about it, and both of them said they weren't sure.

1Thess 4 speaks loudest to me in favor of pre-tribulation rapture of the church, but at the same time, I cannot discount other verses that seem to say otherwise. (Just because I haven't figured out a way for them to be reconciled yet doesn't mean they can't be.) For the record, if Jesus raptures His church before the tribulation, fine -- I'm ready to go when He is. If we have to wait until the end of the tribulation, I'll deal with that, too (if I'm still around). I don't know how it will happen, but that's okay by me. I personally think the prophecy is intentionally vague and confusing because it seems clear to me God wants us ready at any moment. That's the way He wants us to live. I believe that if we did have warning, we'd live anyway we wished until we knew it was getting close.

I'm looking forward to seeing your response.