The best explanation of "HELL" that I've found

No. That is the point of salvation through the grace of Jesus Christ. The whole point is that He has already paid the penalty for our judgment. Those believers who are written in His book of life before His return escape judgment. That is the promise of the Rapture (1Thess 4). And Jesus alludes to this separation in the parables of the wheat and chaff, and the sheep and goats.

What about grace is fair? Of course it's not fair, but it's not fair in our favor! That's why it's so incredible!

According to Revelation 20, Judgment Day is at the end of Christ's millenial reign on earth.

 

Nor do I. I apologize for being unclear. I meant that we will not enter heaven or dwell on the new earth with the flawed bodies we know today. We will follow the pattern of Jesus after His resurrection, because that's what the Bible says. Good find, Turbo.

I, too, am looking forward to my new body. But even more, I'm looking forward to those I know and love who suffer with physical ailments receiving theirs. Max Lucado wrote a book called, When Christ Comes on this subject, and when I read the part about receiving new flawless bodies, I wept with joy for my wife.

 

Romans 2:14-15 (NLT)
"Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right."

Earlier in the passage, Paul says the Jews will be judged by the law because they live under the law. But the Gentiles who don't know the law will be judged by their natural instincts of right and wrong, and how closely they followed them. That is two separate standards, as it must be to be just. How can one be judged (or even condemned) by a standard he's never known?

At the end, yes. But there is much variation between now and the end. Much of that 'taking of sides' will be done during the Tribulation. Those left will either choose God or choose Satan. There will be almost no middle ground. Satan will actually see to that, ironically.

 

I think we're talking about two different judgments here. Judgment Day, or the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20 decides (after the pre-rapture believers have already been taken) who will spend eternity in heaven and who will spend eternity in hell. But believers will also be judged after they're saved by what they've done for the kingdom of heaven, as referenced best, IMO, in the parable of the talents. That is when our varying rewards are determined.

 

When Thomas asked, "When do we get to see the Father", Jesus also said, "Don't you recognize Me?"

Jesus was both. He was God in human flesh. That's why I think the second possibility cannot be completely ruled out. Another example is that Jesus told His disciples on several occasions that "this generation" would not die before He came back. In our terms, a generation is about what, 20 years? Clearly He cannot have been speaking in our terms.

 

The following is an actual question given on University of Washington chemistry mid-term: "Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)? Support your answer with a proof."
Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law (gas cools off when it expands and heats up when it is compressed) or some variant.

One student, however, wrote the following:
First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So, we need to know the rate that souls are moving into Hell and the rate they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there are more than one of these
Religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially.

Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand as souls are added. This gives two possibilities.

(1) If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.

(2) Of course, if Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.

So which is it? If we accept the postulate given to me by Ms.Therese Banyan during my Freshman year that "it will be a cold night in Hell before I sleep with you," and take into account that fact that I still have not succeeded in having sexual relations with her, then: (2) cannot be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic.

The student got the only A.

 

:applause:

 

I applaud you for being to consider different alternatives than the norm on this issue.

I confess that what I see you doing is searching for some way to make Jesus' words agree with what you already believe.

You already believe that people's spirits go to heaven or hell when they die, so you try to make Jesus' words match up with that belief.

If you already believe that people either go to heaven or to hell when they die, then Jesus' words to the thief and to Mary Magdalene don't make sense. They don't agree with that belief. Therefore, you're left with trying to modify what Jesus said.

Did he mean a literal day when he said day? Did he mean a 24 hr period when he said day or could that be a time period of longer than 24 hrs? Did he mean heaven when he used paradise?

All of these are attempts to make Jesus' words agree with your earlier belief.

I think we should take Jesus at his words, his clear words. He promised the thief, on that day, that he would enter paradise. Basically, he was telling the thief that he would go to heaven one day. Judging from Jesus' words to Mary M. Jesus himself had not been to heaven yet, therefore, the day that the thief would enter heaven would one day in the future.

If this is true (and I could be completely wrong in my understanding), that puts the belief that people go to heaven or hell immediately following their deaths into jeopardy. It means that people who die (whether they're going to heaven or hell) are "reserved" in their graves until the 2nd coming of Christ.

There are many other texts, which I'll use at a later time, which point towards that second conclusion.

 

For some reason, I don't see Paul talking about the Rapture in 1 Thess. 4:13-17. Here are some reasons why:

1. First, in this section Paul is talking about death. He says, in verse 13, that he doesn't want people "to be ignorant about those who fall asleep." What does this mean? By the rest of that sentence, "or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope," we realize that he is talking about people who die.

(I won't get into this much, however, the refers to death many many times as a sleep. This is a real key about what death really is.)

Paul was facing questions from the Christians who lived in Thessalonica about what happened to people when they died. In this passage, he seeks to anwer those questions.

2. Paul then shares what God has inspired him regarding what happens to people whey they die. Verse 14 states: "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him."

Paul says that Jesus died and rose again. So he says that in the same way, God will treat people who have "fallen asleep in him" (which is the Bible's way of saying they've died) in the same way that Jesus was treated. Jesus died. Then he rose again. People who die in Christ will die, then rise again.

3. Paul then describes how this process will take place. Verses 15-17 describes this process.

People who have died (in the Lord) will be in their graves (or else, how can they rise first?). They hear the "loud command", the "voice of the archangel" and "the trumpet call of God" and they rise to life again.

Those who are alive at that time will rise together with those who have just risen to life from their graves, and together, they will rise in the air until they meet Jesus.

4. From that time forward, they will be with the Lord forever.

Notice, however, the description given in verse 16 of Jesus' second coming. He will give a loud command, there will be the voice of the archangel along with the trumpet call of God. This does not seem to be a secret even, like that described by the Rapture. This seems to be an event that is seen and heard by many people.

5. Paul ends by stating that this truth is to bring encouragement to Christians (verse 18).

In my next post, I'll talk about what Jesus' second coming will be like, according to the Bible.

 

The second coming of Jesus

Here are just a few observations about the second coming of Jesus.

The word rapture does not appear in the Bible but is a term frequently used to mean the Second Coming of Jesus. Let's first begin by looking at some Bible texts:

1. John 14:1-3. Jesus promised He would return.

2. Acts 1:9-11. Angels confirmed His promise and testified to its truthfulness.

3. Revelation 1:7. When Jesus returns every eye shall see Him. This is important because it indicates that it will not be a secret event.

4. Matthew 24:27. His return shall be like lightning flashing across the sky. Again, how can it be a secret even if His return is flashed across the sky like ligthning?

5. I Thessalonians 4:16-17. It will be an audible event. The righteous dead will be resurrected and along with the righteous living caught up in the sky.

6. I Corinthians 15:51-54. God will clothe His people with immortality.

7. Matthew 16:27. His return shall be a glorious event. He comes with His
reward.

8. Revelation 6:14-17. The unrighteous wicked fear His coming and cry for the rocks to fall upon them.

9. Matthew 13:37-43. The evil are purged out of His kingdom by fire and the righteous saved through all eternity.

10. Isaiah 25:9. The righteous are delighted to see Him come. They joyfully exclaim “Lo, this is our God…”

11. Revelation 19:11-16. As King of Kings leading the armies of heaven, He returns as triumphant Lord.

12. Titus 2:13. His coming is called the “Blessed Hope” of a lost mankind.

13. Revelation 22:11-12; 17-20. Jesus' final invitation to prepare for His soon return.

When taken completely, the Bible does not picture the second coming of Jesus as a secret rapture. It pictures Jesus as coming in glory, accompanied by multitudes of angels. Jesus' glory will be like lightning flashing across the sky. It will be a visual event as well as an audible event.

My questions are these: why would Jesus go through all that trouble if, all along, Christians would be going to heaven the moment they died? Why would Jesus need to go through a special event like the second coming if he's already insitituted a way for his followers to go to heaven when they died?

Also, why would Paul says that the dead in Christ will rise from their graves if they're already in heaven with God? It doesn't make sense that God's people would go to heaven immediately after death, and yet, Jesus go through all the trouble of coming to this planet to retrieve his followers. One could think that if Jesus were patient, his people would get to heaven at the end of their lives. What would be the point of his coming back to retrieve them?

I'm sure that you have questions. Isn't Jesus coming secretly? Doesn't the Bible say, “There will be two in the field, one taken and one left” in Matthew 24:40?

The Bible makes it abundantly plain that Jesus' coming is not a secret event (Revelation 1:7; Psalm 50:3; I Thessalonians 4:16-17; Matthew 24:27). When the Bible speaks of those being left, it does not say they will be left alive on earth. The extended passage in Luke 17:26-37 describes the event in detail.

In Noah's day there were two classes, “one taken (saved), one left (destroyed by the flood)(verse 27). In Lot's day there were two classes, (one taken out of the city and saved, one left in the city and consumed by the fire). It will be similar when Jesus comes (Luke 17:30-37). One class will be taken to heaven with Jesus and the other class will be destroyed.

In Luke 17:37, the question is raised, “Where, Lord? Where are these people left.” The Bible answer is plain, “Whithersoever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.” Revelation 19:11-18 clarifies the point that the wicked are destroyed when Jesus comes, (see also 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9,2:8).

But, doesn't the Bible teach Jesus is coming as a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:2)?
Each Bible reference to Jesus coming as a thief, is in reference to the unexpected time of Jesus' coming, not the manner of His coming.

He comes quickly as a thief, unexpectedly as a thief, but in glorious splendor as lightning in triumphant glory (see Matthew 24:42-44, I Thessalonians 5:1-5, Matthew 24:27).

Do God's people live through the coming tribulation or are they raptured before the tribulation?

The experiences of ancient Israel were examples given by God for His people living at the close of time. Just as Israel was delivered from Egyptian bondage after the plagues, so God's church will be protected through the plagues and be delivered from the hand of the oppressor (I Corinthians 10:11; Psalm 91; 46).

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego entered the flames when they refused to yield to the universal death decree of Babylon's King. In those flames God miraculously delivered them. Their death-defying faith faced the flames (Daniel 3:16-28). He comes as a thief after the plagues (Revelation 16:15).

What sense would it make to declare “Behold I come as a thief after six plagues are already poured out” if He had already come as a thief before they were poured out? Revelation 15:8 emphatically declares “No man can enter the (heavenly) Temple until the plagues are completed.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 makes it plain that the anti-christ is revealed before Jesus comes and is destroyed by the brightness of His coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

I know I've written a lot. Sorry about that

To summarize, I don't believe the Bible teaches that God will retrieve his followers to heaven using a process called the rapture. I believe that God will retrieve his followers using the process called the second coming. At that time, ALL believers, those who've died in ages past as well as believers who are still alive, will go to be with the Lord forever.

Edit: I'm leaving for my brother's wedding this weekend. I'll be glad to continue our discussion when I get back. I'm enjoying this. Eric, you challenge me (in very good ways) to examine what I believe and why I believe it. This is good and I'm enjoying our discussion.