The best explanation of "HELL" that I've found

That's a good inferrence from that passage.

 

This is true for those who have been taught the Gospel, but not for everyone.

 

Thanks for posting this, Turbo. It's taken me a while to get through it. There are some good points, some not so good. But the doctrines of heaven and hell are very confusing. The apocalyptic prophecy of Daniel and Revelation are anything but clear and concise.

 

Thanks for your responses. I always enjoy the ideas that you bring up. I want to take a look at a couple of them and share a response to your ideas.

In the case that you listed, Jesus did indeed tell the thief that he would be "with him" in paradise. This makes it seem that the thief would enter paradise that very same day.

However, we may be misunderstanding what Jesus actually said. In John 20 we find the story of Mary Magdalene coming face to face with the risen Jesus. Let me quote a small portion of their exchange:

16 Jesus said to her, "Mary." She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher).
17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father...."

Notice that Jesus, on that resurrection Sunday morning, told her that he had not yet returned to his Father. I'm assuming that Jesus' Father is in heaven. Thus, we can see that Jesus had, by Sunday morning, NOT yet gone to heaven. But, how can this be? Didn't he tell the thief, on Friday evening while they were hanging on their crosses, that they would be together in paradise? Didn't Jesus say that they would be together in paradise that very day?

We have two ways of looking at this seeming contradiction. Either Jesus lied to the thief on the cross by telling him that they would be together in paradise, yet in reality, Jesus did not rise to heaven until Sunday morning after he was seen by Mary Magdalene.

Or, we misunderstand what Jesus said to the thief on the cross. I choose the second option. I think that we have misunderstood Jesus' statement to the thief.

Here is what I think has happened. When the New Testament was written in Greek, its original language, there were no commas and no periods. There was no punctuation at all. The punctuation was added much later.

In this verse, the punctuation actually matters a lot. Look at these two sentences and notice the difference made by one little comma.

"Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

"Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."

Did you notice that switching the comma from its position after the word "truth" to after the word "today" makes the whole verse read completely different?

By moving the comma to its position after the word "today", it makes the verse line up in complete agreement with what Jesus told Mary Magdalene on Sunday morning.

During the crucifixion, all he had done was promise that thief THAT day, that he would be in paradise. Not that he would in paradise that very same day. And so, that thief died knowing that he had received the promise that, one day, he would be in paradise with Jesus.

If we don't look at that verse in that perspective, we end up calling Jesus a liar. He did tell Mary Magdalene that he had not yet gone to see his Father in heaven. This was on Sunday morning. Obviously, if he really had been with the thief in paradise on Friday evening, why did Jesus tell Mary Magdalene that he hadn't gone to see his Father yet?

I think that the explanation I've given here gives the very best explanation and makes Jesus' statements to the thief and to Mary Magdalene in complete agreement.

I'd like to see the verses that you mention here. I certainly don't remember any that portray these ideas.

Think about it logically. The Bible talks about a day of judgement that every person has to go through. There are several parables that place this judgement at the end of the world. In other words, EVERY person in this world receives their judgement at the same time. It wouldn't be fair to judge saved people first (and allow them to enjoy their reward in heaven) while the unsaved remain unjudged until much later.

I guess the questions are: when is Judgement Day? And who is judged on that day?

 

What you say about the flesh is true. It is indeed the source of many temptations and struggles for humans. Yet, does that mean that God will do away with human physical forms? I don't think so.

The answer to your last question is no. God will not allow our imperfect bodies and corrupted flesh to go to heaven. God will actually transform and change our bodies so that they will be perfect and uncorrupted.

This is what I think Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians 15. Here are a few verses from that chapter:

51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

Notice that Paul says we will be changed in a twinkling of an eye. What change will this be? He defines is as our bodies being changed into the imperishable and immortal.

Yet, how do we know that we will have human physical forms?

Earlier in chapter 15, Paul talks about the difference between the bodies we will have before the resurrection and the bodies we will have after the resurrection. Here are the verses:

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Paul describes our form after the resurrections as a body. He defines that body as imperishable, in glory, in power, and a spiritual body.

However, the best support for this idea is what Paul says in Philippians 3:20-21:

20 "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,
21 who, by the power that enables Him to bring everything under His control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like His glorious body."

That last words in that verse say that our bodies will be like Jesus' glorious body. Thats an amazing verse! Paul is saying that our bodies after the resurrection will be like the very same body Jesus had after his resurrection.

What kind of body did Jesus have after his resurrection? Well, we know that he walked through walls. Yet, when he faced doubting Thomas, he asked Thomas to feel the scars of the nails and of the spear in his side. Later, he ate breakfast with the disciples on the shore of the Sea of Galilee.

Which leads me to believe that Jesus' body was not only a spirit (walking through walls) but also physical (could be felt and could digest food).

When the saved are taken to heaven, they will receive new bodies. It describes this as being changed in a twinkling of an eye. These bodies will be same as the body Jesus had after his resurrection. These bodies will be perfect and uncorrupted.

I'm looking forward to my new perfect body.

 

I don't think you can make a case for having different judgements for several groups of people.

At the end, there will be only two groups of people in the world. Those who have accepted Jesus as their Savior (and thus will go to heaven) and those who have rejected Jesus (and thus will go to hell). There are no other groups of people.

This is supported by the parable of the wheat and tares as well as by the parable of the goats. There were only two distinct groups mentioned and each received their reward (judgement) at the same time.

 

Actually, I think that everyone is judged by the law. How could God have a different "measuring stick" for different people? He would be accused of not judging equally.

The Bible says that we will be judged according to what we have done. Matthew 16 "For the Son of Man is going to come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will reward each person according to what he has done."

Paul supports this idea in this passage in 2 Corinthians 5 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

The Old Testament certainly supports this idea as well: Ecclesiastes 12 "For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil."

Finally, Revelation states that everything we do is written in a book in heaven. God refers to this book as he gives his judgements for each person. Revelation 20 "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."

If God will judge us according to our actions, on what standard will he base his judgement? According to James, it is God's law: James 2:10-12, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For He who said, 'Do not commit adultery,' also said, 'Do not murder.' If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker. Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom."

Does this mean that, since nobody can keep God's law perfectly, no one will be saved? Obviously not. This is where the good news of the gospel comes in. I John 2 "But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ the Righteous One."

The standard of our judgement will be our actions as compared to God's perfect law. On that standard, we ALL will be judged as sinful and we would ALL go to hell. The good news is that we have Jesus who lived the perfect life in our place. Thus, he takes our place and we receive, instead of death in hell, eternal life in heaven.

 

I've seen that argument (about the comma) before, and it does have some merit. I've not seen it combined with that interchange between Mary M. and Jesus, though, and it is compelling.

There are other factors in worthy of consideration, though. First, Jesus and the Father are one. Couldn't the spirit of the thief ascend into heaven to be with the Father while Jesus remained on the earth and His statement still be true?

Another possibility -- how long is a day to God? This adds vagueness to the promise Jesus made. The thief could have ascended with Jesus and still could be "today" on God's calendar, couldn't he?

There are two words in the promise Jesus gave that give me trouble -- "today" and "paradise".

You are correct that ancient Greek used no punctuation, and the second configuration could be the accurate version. However, that is the only time in recorded Scripture that He used that preamble to anything He said. Usually He said, "I tell you the truth...". What made that situation different?

Unless I'm mistaken, that's the only instance He used the term, "paradise" as well. What did He mean? Is Paradise heaven? Or is Paradise the new earth that He will establish after His return?

 

But Jesus was a man, so wouldn't it be reasonable to assume he was speaking of our days? The term day is used all through the resurection, and as far as I can tell it always refers to "earth days."

 

The first passage is in 1 Thessalonians, so my bad there:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (NIV)
"Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

This passage is probably the best argument for the Rapture, and it states that the believers, both dead and alive, will be taken before the millenial reign. Then, after the millenial reign in Revelation 20:12-13...

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done."

This has to be the remainder of those who were not taken up with Him at the second coming. The book of life will list the saints who fell during the Tribulation. The other books will be witness to those others who fell but did not believe. Romans 2 states that those who do not know the Law will not be judged by it. They will be judged by their deeds, with their consciences bearing witness. This looks to me to be that judgment. If there was no hope for those not in the book of life, why would God bother to keep a record of their faults? Why not stop with the book of life?