Sorry folks, but Moose is expendable.

He was suggesting we were only running the draw on, say, 3rd and 22 from within our own 20.


70,000 booing fans at BofA can't all be wrong.

 

OK, Mags, start giving me some actual examples of when we've run a draw play in a managable 3rd down situation. Name at least 3 of them.

 

Got ya.

I think Henning can be a bit off on his calls. But, it's situational football sometimes.

If you are 3rd and 11 on your own 21, I can see calling a draw, anticipating a softer Cover 3 or Deep 4 look, with 3 down linemen. I can't think of too many times where I look back after a game and say that Henning calling a draw on 3rd and 10 from awkward field position was a move that contributed to the loss. At the time, 70,000 people (half of whom are drunk), want to see a pass. Fans love passing. Fans don't like draw plays on 3rd and 11.

At the same time, no fan should ever be allowed to influence play calling.

 

I'm still waiting, Mags.

 

Henning, IMHO, weighs the pros and cons of situational football with a little more caution than, say, Mike McCarthy or Mike Martz.

That's a direct reflection on Fox's offensive philosophy. Shorten the game. Don't take unneccesary risks. If you are 3rd and 9, but your left tackle jumps, you are now in 3rd and 13. Compound that on the road, with an elevated noise level, and a draw play inside your own 30, in a close game, with a defense that usually plays well late in games, is not all that bad.

If you go back and look at the tapes or gamebooks from some Panther games, you will find very few times (3 or less) where Henning called a draw in a combination of the following situations:

Trailing.
Inside the 40.
Under 2 minutes.

You get a get combination of these three things, and you will not see a draw play. Maybe once in a blue moon, like Delhomme's audible in the Chargers game late.

Now, in the third quarter, 8 minutes left. At your own 21, and in a 3rd and 11, you might see draw play called, for a 5-7 yard gain, taking a 50 yards punt from the opponents 27 to the opponents' 20 yard line. It's a small difference on the surface, but 7 yards can be an eternity.

I recall a specific play. 2003 playoffs vs. STL.

2nd half. 3rd and 14. Just outside midfield. Draw to Foster, goes for 16 yards and a first down. Big play in the game.

I also recall how Henning allowed Delhomme to run the no-huddle in the last minute of the Tampa game at home this year. Delhomme was directed by Fox, Henning and McCoy to stay aggressive with his check w/me's. Go vertical, and don't rely on Jeff Chandler to win it. We didn't wait, we went for the win. I credit the coaches for allowing Delhomme to run this drill.

For every example one can cite that running a draw on 3rd and long hurts a team's objective of winning, I can cite an equal number of examples where a 3rd and long draw play worked out in our favor, and sometimes we picked up the yardage for a fresh set of downs.

Next season, Henning should take the same approach he did in the last half of this past season. Be aggresive early. Take some shots vertically. Give this defense a lead to play with. I don't know about y'all, but that Cardiac Cats shit got to be very tiring as a fan. We can win, and win big, with our personnel.

 

Nice post, Hammer. I'm glad I'm not the only person that understands Hennings methods and strategy involving situational football.

 

Carolina Panthers at 04:161-10-DEN41(4:16) N.Goings up the middle to DEN 41 for no gain (A.Wilson).2-10-DEN41(3:39) B.Hoover right end to DEN 39 for 2 yards (K.Herndon, M.Fatafehi).3-8-DEN39(2:57) N.Goings up the middle to DEN 35 for 4 yards (R.Hayward; D.Spragan).4-4-DEN35(2:23) J.Kasay 53 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-J.Kyle, Holder-T.Sauerbrun.


3 and 8, played for the FG...



Carolina Panthers at 13:191-10-CAR37(13:19) J.Delhomme pass to R.Proehl to CAR 44 for 7 yards (R.Hood).2-3-CAR44(12:40) S.Davis right guard to CAR 46 for 2 yards (Q.Mikell).3-1-CAR46(12:04) S.Davis left end to CAR 48 for 2 yards (D.Burgess).1-10-CAR48(11:21) S.Davis left end to PHI 47 for 5 yards (M.Lewis).2-5-PHI47(10:37) J.Delhomme pass incomplete to B.Hoover (J.Kearse).
PENALTY on CAR, Illegal Shift, 5 yards, enforced at PHI 47 - No Play.2-10-CAR48(10:32) J.Delhomme pass to M.Muhammad to PHI 48 for 4 yards (D.Walker; J.Trotter).3-6-PHI48(9:52) PENALTY on CAR-J.Gross, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at PHI 48 - No Play.3-11-CAR47(9:22) B.Hoover right end to 50 for 3 yards (N.Wayne).4-8-50 (8:53) T.Sauerbrun punts 50 yards to end zone, Center-J.Kyle, Touchback.



3rd and 11 at midfield...give up

Carolina Panthers at 00:471-10-CAR947) B.Hoover left guard to CAR 12 for 3 yards (D.Scott).Second QuarterCarolina Panthers continued...2-7-CAR12(15:00) J.Delhomme pass incomplete to B.Hoover.3-7-CAR12(14:56) B.Hoover right guard to CAR 19 for 7 yards (D.Florence)


it worked!


Carolina Panthers at 13:211-10-CAR30(13:21) J.Delhomme pass incomplete to K.Colbert (Q.Jammer).
PENALTY on SD-Q.Jammer, Defensive Pass Interference, 35 yards, enforced at CAR 30 - No Play.1-10-SD35(13:13) J.Delhomme pass incomplete to M.Gaines (T.Kiel).2-10-SD35(13:08) B.Hoover left tackle to SD 33 for 2 yards (I.Olshansky).3-8-SD33(12:29) B.Hoover right tackle to SD 28 for 5 yards (T.Kiel).4-3-SD28(11:50) J.Kasay 46 yard field goal is No Good, Wide Right, Center-J.Kyle, Holder-T.Sauerbrun.


played for FG, didn't make it...


This is just through 6 games. Feel free to look for more.

 

Rez,

All nice points. Very good.

The Denver game, a little questionable. But it's not like we were moving the ball with a great deal of authority or confidence at that juncture of the season, or in that game. I don't agree with Henning on that one, but given the fact that our offensive personnel were playing scared because they were missing Davis, Foster and Smith, it's understandible to keep it safe there.

Philadelphia game was a mess. Delhomme had a concussion and Fox had one of his few brain farts, electing to keep a hurt quarterback in the game, rather than put in a backup. That's why this team need an upgrade at QB backup-wise. We dominated the Philly game statistically. We just threw 4 picks.

Like I said, Henning is cautious. But he takes his shots too:

2003 Wildcard vs. Dallas: 3rd and 3, play action works beautifully (due in part to the fact that we run often in that scenario). JD to Smitty for the TD.

2003 DIVI vs. STL: 3rd and 14 in double OT. We don't run the draw here. We go empty set, max-pro, and fire a slant to Smitty for a game winner. Bold call.

2003 NFCC vs. PHI: 3rd and short in qtr 1. Full house set from inside the 40. Delhomme fakes, finds Moose, underthrows the ball perfectly so only Moose can come back on it. It WAS DESIGNED THAT WAY, if you know your football. Bold call. Got us up early.

Super Bowl: We aired it out. All day. Delhomme to Smitty. Delhomme to Moose. Foster scores on....oh shit...A DRAW PLAY on 3rd down! Imagine that. Do I think Henning should have passed more in the early stages, sure, in hindsight. But I think both teams were kind of feeling each other out. It just so happens that New England got the ball last, and our $200 Million defense could not make one stop all day, other than Howard's clutch pick, which resulted from a backup defensive end's (Wallace) pressure. Our front four took the day off, so to blame Henning for that game would be insane.

So there are pros and cons to it all. But you play for the given situation.

 

You only found 3 that were inside of 3rd and 10, and 1 of those was converted.

I was asking Magnus (who I still havn't heard from) to name three plays off the top of his head that could support his agruement, not for someone to lookup actual gamebooks and comeback with examples from the first 6 games (when the offense was still in transition) 20 minutes later.

That is very weak, BTW. I'm sure if you look up gamebooks from every team you'll find similar examples of this ultra-consertive strategy.

 

What's weak is the fact that you have nothing to back up your arguments. I actually find things that back up what I say. Of course every team does this, it's very situational. But we're very predictible. This doesn't even consider the draw plays on 1st down and 2nd down inside of 2 minutes. 3rd and 11 at midfield and we run a draw?