Running thread for when the Orioles collapse...

You're not going to get under my skin by being insulting. You have a far better chance of getting on my nerves by just saying stupid things. But if you're going to waste time with insults, at least try to be creative. Say something I haven't seen 8 million times before, something I might actually be able to enjoy if not respect.

In your haste to be a troll and pick fights, you obviously don't even bother to read what was said. How about saving yourself the time and embarrassment of addressing positions no one ever took, and instead notice where I said "Well they spend it fairly well."

Do the Red Sox have the second highest payroll in the major leagues or not? Do the Yankees have the highest payroll or not?

Wrong. Martinez has proven that he's a very good player, but the Sox were right to be concerned about his shoulder. The Mets look good right now, but whether or not that deal was a good one will be determined by whether or not Martinez stays healthy over the course of the contract. And they used that money to sign Renteria, who was a hell of a lot more expensive than Cabrera. As for Lowe, the Sox knew he just simply wasn't that good. He's been on the mound for a couple of key wins, but you'd be hard-pressed to argue that he was responsible for those wins, and his stats aren't impressive. 2002 was a stellar season, but besides that, 1999 was the only other year where he was above average in terms of actual pitching performance (WHIP, BAA, etc). Aside from Martinez, the "good players" you speak of are guys like Lowe, Cabrera, and Todd Walker. You can't possibly be serious when you suggest that those guys are anywhere near equal footing with the players they've bought.

The Sox traded for Varitek (along with Lowe), which was very smart. But they bought David Ortiz, they bought Renteria, they bought Mueller, they bought Manny Ramirez, they bought Johnny Damon, they bought Keith Foulke, they bought Mantei, they bought Wells, they bought Clement, they bought Miller, and they essentially bought Curt Schilling. The only regular they actually drafted was Trot Nixon. You can argue with me, but you can't argue with those facts. The Sox spent well, but they still got where they are because they've outspent everyone except the Yankees.


And for the record, Wade Miller was not a "huge risk." There were injury issues, but pretty much everyone believed he would bounce back to be an excellent pitcher. In fact, he was the one pitcher I wanted the Orioles to get this off-season. So yes the Sox deserve credit for being the ones to spend the most on him, but it's still a fact that they bought him. As for Beltre, I imagine they didn't spend money on him because they recognized that he was a one-year wonder like pretty much every other sane person.

 

no they are just the best small market team in the division. we dont have a population of 4 million we have two teams less than an hour away from us. we dont have hoardes of frat boys buying our hats because we finally didnt screw the pooch after 148 years

 

Yeah, and I don't remember seeing too many Boston hats before the past couple of years. I know I wore my Orioles gear in '83 (I was pretty young back then), but I wore it in '88 too.

 

Baltimore better win the division because Minnesota or the White Sox will have the Wild Card wrapped up in the Central. they won 8-5 tonight over the Astros, and seem to be playing well. That new starter they brought up, Penn, looks decent. I'm a fan of the Orioles and have been accustomed to mediocre years since '96 when that damn Yankee (not the band) fan took the ball away from Tony Tarasco in the ALCS, but I think this could be their year to win the East. Mizzelli did a good job last year, and you could really see them improving a lot in August and September. They are going to be a tough team to beat. The Yankees don't look like they are gonna do jack this year. Carl Pavano is the worst signee of the whole offseason. I can't stand the Red Sox or their fans and think they are the most overrated team in the majors. Hopefully they won't make the playoffs so we don't have to hear their arrogant fans talk about how their team is the best to ever walk the earth.

 

Ray Miller is the reason for Baltimore's success, not Mazzilli, although I have nothing against Lee. And yeah, I thought Penn looked solid the one time I saw him. He has a good change, but he seems to stay up in the strize zone too much with his fastball.


As for Chicago, I keep waiting for them to fall back. There's no reason at all for them or the Nationals to be winning as much as they do. They're not a particularly good hitting or pitching team, and they win a ridiculous number of one run games. They've sustained it, though, so it looks like they'll have a good shot at the division or the wild card even if they fall off their current pace.

 

i'm luke warm on lee personally. think he needs to get fired up more often...particularly last season.

 

Is there a point here? I didn't know spending money guarantees a title.

But they knew he was still one of the best pitchers in the game. They made him a pretty good offer.

A lot more expensive? You sure about that?

Sure I can. The Os bought Tejada. They bought Lopez. They bought Sosa. They bought Kline. They bought Palmeiro. Is there really a point to naming different teams' free agent signings? They all do it, to different degrees. Those degrees depend on a teams's willingness to spend.

The Sox bought Bill Mueller. You serious Clark. Who did they have to outbid for his services. What was it: 15 or 20 teams clamoring to get him? Ortiz? Yeah, they bought him for a song. The Twinkies basically let him walk for nothing and as I recall they weren't too upsert to see him go. Using Ortiz and Mueller as examples is just plain dumb.

Mantei and Wells? Please. Two more that no one else wanted. Blaming the Sox for throwing out pocket change with the hopes they'd contribute is stoopid.

BTW, the Sox got Schilling in a trade.

Final assessment (dismissing free agents lost for free agents gained (i.e., Martinez/Clement) and bargain-basement signings of players not wanted by other teams (Ortiz, Wells, Mueller, Millar): the Sox bought Manny Ramirez, Johnny Damon and Keith Foulke.

 

It doesn't. I already gave Boston credit for spending money wisely, but the fact of the matter is, when you spend a ton more than 95% of the teams you're competing against, you're going to win more games even if you spend stupidly. You won't win championships, but you'll still win. And if you have two teams like Boston and Toronto both picking players pretty well, the one with the salary three times higher than the other's is going to dominate.

Yeah, they did, but my point was that there was risk involved so it's not like they were forced to just let a guy walk away because they ran out of money. When they let someone go it's because they bought someone even better for more money.

The Angels paid Cabrera more than I thought, but it's still $8 million more total, or $2 million more per year. That may not sound like much to a Boston fan, but it's about one tenth of the Devil Rays entire payroll.

Yes, there is. And if you'll care to notice, I already said: "It's not like the Orioles have been cheap either, but the Yankees and Red Sox outspend other teams by so much that it's an enormous advantage." The fact is that Boston has an assload of money and has spent a great deal more than everyone else except the Yankees. Other teams just can't compete with them in terms of salary even if they want to. Angelos is rich, and Baltimore isn't quite a "small market," but even when winning the Orioles aren't pulling in anything close to what the Red Sox and especially Yankees put up. It's not just a matter of better financial management either, those two teams have natural advantages that no one in either league can match.

There is definitely something dumb here, but I don't believe it's what you think. Obviously you missed the point, but the idea was that nearly every player on Boston's roster has been bought from somewhere else. Nixon was drafted, while Varitek, Lowe, and Wakefield were brought in early enough that they could reasonably be considered lifelong Red Sox. All the others were bought from somewhere else. Thus the roster composition has a far greater percentage of free agents than pretty much any other team in the big leagues. Even the Yankees have more homegrown players.

One year for 1.25 million, slightly more than what the Yankees were offering. That's not quite chump change, but yeah, that was a steal. And they've kept him for many more millions (although far less than he would have gotten as a free agent). And as for what the Twins wanted, Tom Kelly was a stubborn ass who just decided he didn't like some players. Everyone who looked at the numbers knew that Ortiz could be a very good hitter with regular at-bats, but Boston got the jump on everyone else since that was slightly before the Moneyball craze.

Wrong. Mantei was a hot commodity as several teams were looking at him as a closer. Everyone knew about his stuff, but he's always been injured. Suprisingly he actually took slightly less money to come to Boston. As for Wells, they're paying him $8 million over two years in part because the Yankees were also after him, among some others.

That's why I said "they essentially bought Curt Schilling." It's just like how the Yankees "essentially bought Randy Johnson." Do you think the Diamondbacks got anything close to fair value in prospects for either player? No, it was a matter of money.

You can spin it any way you want, but the reality is that if Boston was a team with an average size payroll depending upon their draft and minor league systems, they'd be below average. Epstein has certainly been better than the previous regimes, and therefore there does appear to be future help on the way, but there's absolutely no question that Boston wouldn't have made the playoffs, much less won a championship without it's $100+ million dollar payroll.

There's nothing in the rules against spending money, so I'm not saying they don't deserve it, but it's just plain ridiculous to pretend that they didn't buy a championship.

 

the collapse starts now........go!

 

"It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

type as many walls of words as you want, in the end all you got is Grade A bullshit. how appropriate that you're the self-proclaimed fantasy guru, 'cause in the real world, you're obviously a lost little puppy.