Protestants and Mary

"I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." -Jesus, on the cross to the repentant thief (Luke 23)

It's a nice sentiment, but the truth is, we won't know for sure until we get there ourselves.

Maybe because God might have given them other things to do than to listen for the prayers of those still here on earth?

An interesting and admirable premise, but in truth, there is no way for anyone on earth to know that for certain. Only God knows who has been most faithful to Him.

 

I'd be very interested to learn how the Catholic church came to this interpretation. Having studied the account of the Last Supper repeatedly, I don't see the logic in it.

 

what is it with catholics and the need for a "middle man/woman" to talk to God? There's Mary and then the priest during confession. Why can't we just talk to God ourselves. I don't see the need for the middle man. Keep in mind, I'm married to a catholic.

 

This whole discussion is fascinating to me--thanks to everyone who's contributed

On this bible quote:

"When Jesus saw his mother there, and [John] standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home." -John 19:26-27

I always took that to mean that Jesus was entrusting the care of his mother as she aged to John, who would care for her as if she was his own mother.

 

I know where you're coming from. My wife was practicing Catholicism while I was still undecided, but I had kind of an eye opening prayer experience that pretty much sent me over the edge. At a particularly difficult time in my life I had finally started to pray, but I was doing that whole, "talk to God" thing where I was praying in my own words, talking about wghat I wanted to talk about and all that. It felt good in that I was being devoted and doing something that I knew couldn't be bad for me, but nothing inside me was really changing, nothing was being revealed to me about what I needed to do, my feelings weren't changing. But when I finally decided to pray the rosary, things changed in seemingly magical ways and started to crystallize, and it was pretty amazing. I could not only see the truths about where I was at and what I was doing, but I could feel my heart actually changing. I realized that before, I was really talking to myself, despite my intentions, but when I gave over the control of my prayers and took my fingerprint off of them, I got into the flow of God's love and will. It's hard to explain, but I think that's why the only way to get what this guy is saying is like he said, to try praying to Mary or praying some rosaries, and see for yourself the difference in how it feels.

As for you question about the "need to have a middle man", other than the reality of how it feels as described above, I think the philosophy is addressed in the article. It's not a "need" in the sense that you can't just pray to God, it's a love that makes you want to embrace all things and people close to Jesus. Asking Mary to pray for us is part of using every tool in the toolbox, finding God from every angle possible. Again, I think Protestants are just too prideful to think that another person or entity could possibly take their minds off of their conscious desires and help direct them where God truly wants them. We all need help every day and in different ways. I guess I just think the whole mode of ad-lib prayer in Protestantism is very humanist, and taking the longstanding more "mystical" prayer traditions out of religion enables them to focus on their will, rather than be filled with God's. When you pray the rosary, things change in your life in very real and unexpected ways. The saddest part to me is that modern Protestantism has taken even Luther's beliefs on this stuff to a much greater extreme than he ever intended. Luther was like "95% Catholic" and believed in most Catholic prayer traditions. His only problem was that he was a generally angry person from getting beaten by his dad so much, so when he saw political corruption in the church, he freaked out and tossed the baby with the bathwater. So when Protestants ask for why Catholics think they should do things a certain way, I guess I'm wondering why Protestants took it upon themselves to blow off the traditions that date back closest to Christ's time and simply build a new religion based on scriptural interpretation. That's the definition of humanist. The mystical traditions in the Catholic church were there from early on because they worked and helped take the worshipper's inherently corrupt human desires out of the prayer process. It's like a game of telephone. The further away you get from Christ's times and start altering doctrine and tradition, the more watered down and twisted the messages get, and the less effective our communication with God gets.

 

You don't pray to Mary, you ask Mary to pray for you.

 

Maybe we - us prideful Protestants - just don't like the middle man (or middle woman in this case) as much as you do. Hard to believe, I know, but it's possible.

 

The author's point is you only don't like it because you were told it's wrong (because Protestantism has deviated far from where even Luther put it for lack of consistent leadership and doctrine interpretation) and don't know the joy it brings and how truly effective it is. Tough to knock it if you haven't tried it yourself with an open heart. The early Catholic church figured out what works way back when. Modern Protestantism has only torn away pieces of Catholicism and has no basis to add doctrine, so there's no way it can be anything more than "Catholic with fewer tools and less investment and commitment required." Watering down religion and making it easier to be a part of is the quickest way to get more member signed on, but the greatest returns typically come from the greatest investment. By "return on investment," I mean the feeling of a living spiritual presence in our lives that directs us and provides feedback on our thoughts and actions, not any sort of material return, of course.

 

What makes you think I don't understand the author's point?

I just disagree and find myself a bit irked that he can't stop himself from assuming what he doesn't know about what others are thinking. He thinks he KNOWS what's best for me without even asking. He's just sure I'll see it his way if - for example - I just pick those beads up. Sound familiar?

 

I think I was the one who brought up the beads. But yes, part of the problem with Protestants is that they think they're fully equipped to undertake a spritual expedition completely unguided, when that kind of guidance is why the church exists. The protestant churches dropped the ball on the spiritual journey in favor of physical freedom and keeping the seats filled. There's also apparently some sort of politically charged fear that the Catholic church is really seeking to divide people from God by being and providing tools to get to Him. It prideful to think you know all you need to know and do all you need to do to be close to God. That's all just me talking. I don't think the author said any of that.

It doesn't say he's "sure" that including Mary in your spiritual and prayer consciousness will be a transforming experience. I believe he said you can't know unless you try it for yourself. Seeing as that's how it worked for me, I agree. But of course these are personal and sometimes touchy subjects. If you literally feel what you can only term a "supernatural" force at work in your life that guides you and answers your questions, that makes your heart feel peaceful, and gives you real joy and makes you want to give without receiving, that's what I'm talking about, and whatever you're doing is working for you. If you need to read and interpret scripture or have someone else tell you what God wants you to do on a day to day basis, then you should try expanding the toolbox. This is different than having a church or preacher show you how to use the tools at your disposal to get the answers for yourself from God, which is what I believe is the purpose of the church.

It's not, "If you read this and this, the Bible tells you exactly what you should do," which has been my Protestant experience. It's "pray this prayer with a focus on this mystery, and wait and see how your heart fills up, and you'll know what to do."