Projected team strength and weaknesses

Regarding where he played in Georgia, it looks like you were right and I was wrong.

But every single legitimate source on earth does agree with me on that. That's why I find your disagreement so perplexing. It's not something I can consider legitimate disagreement a la whether or not Cedric Benson will be a good pro. Heck, just look at what John Fox said. "He could be a Derrick Brooks-type linebacker or a Roy Williams-type of safety." Some scouting reports and many other evaluations of Davis make that Derrick Brooks comparison. What does Derrick Brooks play? What has Derrick Brooks always played? Davis is a hitter, but he's smallish, doesn't shed well, and doesn't stand up blockers or the tight end. Playmakers play weakside. Strongside linebackers in the 4-3 are typically much bigger linebackers than those playing weakside, and Davis is light even for weakside. And as I pointed out earlier, Davis didn't score well at all in the bench press either.

But I'm not asking you to be ashamed. I'm not even asking you to admit that you're wrong, I'm only pointing out that the only people other than you who suggest that Davis wouldn't be ill-suited to SLB or FS are the Scott Fowlers of the world. That, again, is why I'm flabbergasted at your opinion. You're usually far more astute than that, but let's just agree to disagree. For all I know Davis could end up starting at SLB and be a Pro Bowler, but based on what is almost universally accepted understanding of the differences between SLB and WLB, and the evaluations of Davis' skill set, he's an ideal fit for WLB and not a fit at SLB.

 

Uhh, allright. Maybe if you're basing "legitimate source" on whether they say weakside, rather than the other way around. Since you noted "scouting reports" as the legit source, and since you'd only suggest that NFL reports are truly legit, I'd wonder how you got them. Or ask you to show me where a bunch pigeonhole him only as a weakside player.

The first one I find, which I find specifically by adding "weakside" to my rudimentary search since I came up empty checking the sites I find somewhat reliable, is Fox Sports, where you have the usual "pool" of writers there and Brian Delucia, who I used to be on the same network with. DeLucia suggests directly grooming for Fields, and says that Davis can do some of the same things well, but the alternate take just above it from the other Foxsports guys is that he "might be able to play weakside." That's the ringing endorsement.



But that's the type of thing that's annoying. Without actual proof, and without my finding it, it's painted as "mags against the world" on this opinion even though I can't find this overwhelming majority saying it, nor does it matter. Be great if we could argue just why he's a good fit at SLB, and why he's not, and leave those things as the main point.

And yet he's not that Brooks-type player. Johnson, of the two, is the Derrick Brooks, the guy who pursues, cleans up, is ultra-rangy, but doesn't blitz, doesn't fill the hole, or any of the other things that Davis can do. It's like saying Vick compares to Barry Sanders because they both have quick feet and change of direction - it holds true if that's the cutoff. I don't think using a quick comparison = "John Fox thinks he can't play strong linebacker."

True enough, and I stated that there were negatives to him playing strong, just as there are as him playing weak. That we'd have two contain players at strong and middle, two players who don't shed well, is no different with these incumbent two than with the incoming player, and I did give some reasons why he could struggle at each, too.

Welcome to sarcasm.

That's good, and I guess i get to a point where you're coming from, though you're still trying to push buttons by comparing what I'm saying to Fowler's. dick. That's like me saying that your emotional bond to certain topics is like Sandy's - it's ambiguous and slighting without any value :bananalam

Again, maybe at quickest glance and making up the mind on just that. He's fast, he's having a little trouble shedding at first, he's great in space, so let's put him weakside.

(edited to finish)And then years and years later, like Fields, you move him and then see that WLB might not be his best position. Honestly, I don't see WLB having been WW's best position either, but he can't shed either, and he can't

But sure, agree to disagree. I'm cool with that, I think I put up some points that do suggest that he could have strong assets at SLB, that were dismissed without merit, but I still feel like he could play either outside spot and be gaining something, and losing something.

 

Actually I'm talking primarily about the analysts at ESPN like Clayton and Pasquarelli, the guys at SI, and those at NFL.com. You're correct, I don't have direct access to scouts, but every single article I've ever read about Davis that claimed to have information directly from scouts (Clayton and Pasquarelli frequently cite such reports) said things like Davis lacks the range or instincts to play FS, or would be an ideal fit at WLB.

I gave you Fox's quote. What did he say about Davis? Has he even suggested that Davis could play SLB in place of Fields? No. Fox said they're not sure whether he's a SS or WLB.

Except that you haven't. I have explained why he's not a good fit (light, not particularly strong, far better at knifing than shedding, not good at standing people up, etc) and you didn't bother to address those. If I have missed somewhere that you gave any argument whatsoever of his strengths being suited for SLB, I apologize, but I just read your posts again and still don't see it except for him having playing the position in college.


Look, here's what I think is a pretty darn conclusive point:
David Thornton is playing SLB under Tony Dungee in Indianapolis for some reason, but aside from that I have not been able to find even ONE more example of a guy under 230 pounds playing SLB in the last twenty-five years of the NFL

Jesus Christ, Magnus. I expect those comments of HeadCase, but not of you. I just gave you a John Fox quote saying that Davis IS a Derrick Brooks-type player. Hell, even Mark Richt compared Davis to Derrick Brooks. Fox and Davis' college coach compare Davis to Derrick Brooks and you're going to tell me that Davis isn't a "Brooks-type player"? Are you actually disagreeing with Fox and Richt or would you care to revise your opinion?

For what it's worth, Derrick Johnson is the one who isn't a Derrick Brooks-type player. Johnson is larger, but runs around blocks and doesn't tackle particularly well. Brooks is small, but very physical and a ferocious hitter. You couldn't make a better comparison than the one between Brooks and Davis. I'm not saying Davis is guaranteed to be as good a player, but if you took film of both in college and stripped away the identifying marks, it would be near impossible to tell the difference.

What are ANY disadvantages to Davis playing weakside? Please name any at all. The only one I've seen you mention so far has to do with the fact that we'd still have someone playing out of position at strong, which has nothing at all to do with what position Davis is best suited for.

:bigsquare True. The Fowler thing was a low blow, but I also think it's accurate. Note that I'm not saying that you're a Fowler, but that the only people besides you who I have seen saying Davis could play FS or SLB in the pros are Fowler-types. That's true, those are the only people who I've seen say such things, and obviously it's because they don't understand the differences between FS and SS or SLB and WLB. Obviously you know those differences very well, which is why this argument is driving me bananas.



Anyway, you think Davis could play FS, SS, WLB, or SLB. I think he's ideally suited for WLB, could play SS, and would definitely be out of position at FS or SLB. Given the fact that David Thornton is the only player Davis's size I could find who has ever played SLB in the modern era, and the only players I've seen Davis compared to have been WLBs or SSs, I feel pretty comfortable with my assessment. It doesn't necessarily mean that I'm right and you're wrong, but again, I don't feel this is one of those situations where I can consider your opinion to be valid.

 

is there a quote where Fox says anything specifically about weakside? I don't know if there is, but I'd be surprised.


For that matter, rather than using all-encompassing terms like "everyone who knows anything about anything agrees with me", show me this stuff, so I can determine where people are specifically saying that Davis can only play on the one side. At best, most people are going to be vague and suggest OLB v/s S, which is why it's bizarre you'd single out WLB, and the entire pool of relevant reports, which then becomes a select few reporters with their own opinions, and then incrementally smaller groups.

I feel I have. You didn't address mine, though I did converse about his strength, etc. agreeing that it would be a hindrance to SLB play, theoretically. I said from early on that there were mis-fits for him at SLB, too. No different than the mis-fit for the other two, ironically.

Are you using a single measurable as the litmus test for whether a player should be strongside or weakside? Wow.
And FWIW, Davis is 230, so I can't think of a guy named Thomas Davis under 230 LBs playing SLB in the last 25 years of the NFL.


last 25 years? See, that's what I'm talking about. Absolute absurdities when you get this way, if arguing over whether a guy at 230 v/s 235 is a validity at strongside linebacker, or for that matter, that using listed weights is relevant, either.

I'm saying he's a different style of play. You don't agree that Derrick Johnson is more of the Derrick Brooks of the two? You do find that basic comparisons to players = everyone thinks of him only as a weakside? Sure, as I said, you can say that Vick is like Barry Sanders, but that doesn't make them the same player.

Clarify, since you and I didn't connect on that one - not revise. Plus, I know better than to think that two football men are trying to suggest exactly what you're saying, pigeonholing him as this but not this, as that but not that, rather than knowing it's simply a compliment of how good Davis could become.

To me, I see active, has major problems shedding, has tons of range. I'd say that the two are more similar than Davis to Brooks, but each of the rookies have some Brooks attributes.

Personal preference that I'd rather have him covering the TE than a back - and again parallel to Fields in that regard, both of which to me have a better feel for the strong side than the weak. I don't feel you put a guy weakside just because he's this or that in measurables. I feel he's a more natural fit taking on blocks as he matures than you do, where we'd be losing that to a point at WLB. Teams tend to put players who make major impact behind the LOS, IMO, at strongside, moreso than contain players of weakside. I don't see him as that contain player, and yeah, his strength does hinder that thought. Some suggest he's much stronger than the 12. He looks stronger than that, and while it's a weak argument, you don't find weak ass players ripped.

I don't. I don't find it any more relevant than the "it's you against the world" posturing, or any of the other tricks. You're frustrated because I don't agree, and maybe I'm not putting together points that wow you, but it seems like you're more concerned with the presentation - invalidating it - than arguing it. Yeah, you don't agree. Every time we disagree on something big, it seems like you play this card lately - the "I'm shocked you could even think that" deal, the same basic situation that I'd get from my wife if I accused her of embezzling funds from work to support the Venezuelan cheese cartels. Which has as much to do with SLB as most of what we're arguing at this point.

Caveat to "I think he could play FS" - pretty much only in zone, all I've said about it, to my knowledge.

 

oh - and Lee Woodall. Listed at 230, and couldn't have gone more than 220 soaking wet. Strongside for 1994's top defense. I mean, come on.

 

"He could be a Derrick Brooks-type linebacker or a Roy Williams-type of safety" WHERE DOES DERRICK BROOKS PLAY, MAGNUS? WHERE DOES HE PLAY? PLEASE JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION. WHERE DOES HE PLAY?

I did show you the stuff. I gave you Fox and Richt, what have you shown me that anyone who isn't some internet putz or Flower-clone think Davis can play FS or SLB? You ALWAYS ask me for evidence, but where is yours? Where do you ever give me any evidence? Seems to me that you don't, you just challenge me to produce some, which I always do and yet it never seems to do any good.

Think about this logically. Is ANY strong-side linebacker going to be considered a potential safety? No. Strong-side linebackers are the bigger and slower cousins of weak-side players, but most people don't know enough about football to realize the difference between outside linebacking spots. You do know the difference, so you have no excuse except the same stupid obsession that prompted you to deceive the people here and at the other message board that Davis would be fine at FS when people in the know were saying the opposite.

I will be glad to address them IF YOU TELL ME WHERE THEY ARE. I just said I couldn't find them, but did you bother to point them out? No, because you didn't make any, and you don't have any. You couldn't invent any because there is no logical explanation for your opinion. It's just a manifestation of your stubborn refusal to let go of an idea that has set in your mind like concrete.

Yes, weight is a determining characteristic in where people play. Do you deny the fact that SLBs are overwhelmingly heavier than WLBs? Deny it. Please deny it, because I'd love to see you outright lie.

Not even close. Davis has more range than Johnson, he's a bigger hitter, and he doesn't run around blockers. Davis plays far more like Brooks than Johnson does. I'm honestly surprised you would even suggest otherwise. I would think that meant you just hadn't seen much of Johnson, but since you would know that Davis looks very much like Brooks,you're just being your trademark stubborn self willing to say absolutely anything to avoid admitting that you're wrong.

That is HILARIOUS. John Fox and Mark Richt choose to compare Thomas Davis to Derrick Brooks, and you STILL cannot admit that YOU WERE WRONG to suggest that he isn't like Brooks.

Does everyone see that? John Fox and Mark Richt (Georgia's head coach, for those who don't know) say that Thomas Davis is like Derrick Brooks, but Magnus says he's not and he's not the one who is wrong. Fox and Mark Richt know less about Thomas Davis than Magnus does. ALL HAIL MAGNUS!!! Please take over the Panthers with your superior knowledge, Magnus!!!

I'd be fine with him covering the TE, but as a SS. You know that the SLB is often expected to jam the TE, you just don't want to mention that. You also know that SLBs have significantly lower overall tackles totals than WLBs because a responsibility of SLBs is to engage the tight end in the run game. Using Davis in that way would prevent him from making tackles, not allow him to. It would be a waste of the very things we like about him.

Well, you should tell someone at the NFL because that is what ALL the teams in the NFL do. There isn't a single team in the NFL, not even Indianapolis, who doesn't have a heavier strongside linebacker than weakside linebacker. They all do. 32 out of 32. Call the ACLU or Jessie Jackson if you think that's an injustice, but it's the current state of the NFL. And the other fact is that aside from the Colts (Thornton was WLB until they let Washington go), all 31 other NFL teams have SLBs significantly heavier than Davis.

That's total nonsense and you know it. That or else someone has hijacked your account, which I'm considering increasingly likely.

There wasn't a single 4-3 SLB who led his team in tackles last year. Not one. Moreover, the only "big" names playing SLB are D.J. Williams, who only moved over from WLB due to the signing of Ian Gold, and Marcus Washington. Keith Bulluck plays WLB. Derrick Brooks plays WLB. Takeo Spikes, Keith Brooking, LaVar Arrington, Junior Seau, Brian Simmons, Eric Barton, Dexter Coakley, Tommy Polley, etc all play WLB. In fact, looking at the list of SLBs made me feel better about possibly playing Short there since almost no teams in the NFL have a better than average player there. Everyone has their best linebackers playing weakside. I knew Fields was a blessing, but I had no idea how much of an advantage we had until I saw how utterly dull the list of SLBs is. Seriously, look for yourself.

No, I'm not frustrated because you don't agree. We don't agree on Cedric Benson and I'm fine with that. I'm frustrated because you're making yourself look absolutely stupid with some stubborn inability to admit when you're wrong and correct yourself. That has always held you back and it has always driven me crazy because it's so unnecessary. I was wrong about where Davis played in college, but did you see me pretending that the Georgia website was wrong and I was right? No. I corrected myself and moved on. But you, on the other hand, continue to insist that JOHN FOX AND MARK RICHT ARE WRONG WHILE YOU ARE RIGHT. Do you have any idea how utterly insane that looks?

Disagreeing over the potential impact over Davis would be fine (although we don't). Disagreeing over whether or not it was the right pick would be fine (although we don't). Disagreeing about whether or not Davis is ill-suited to SLB is just ****ing silly, because it's so obvious and one-sided. It would be like arguing about whether or not Brandon Short would be ill-suited to weak-side linebacker. The answer is so ****ing obvious that any disagreement is just lunacy and a waste of time.

Don't lie. There are numerous pre-draft quotes from you saying Davis would be able to play FS. When you were pimping the pick early on you were specifically saying he would start beside Minter. I would be glad to give you two pages worth of quotes on that if you don't stop pretending you said something other than what you did. I'm surprised you would even say that considering we had an argument on that very subject where I chastized you for deceiving posters at the Lair that Davis was suited to play FS in the NFL.

That's fair. Technically the 1994 49ers didn't play weak or strong. Woodall played LLB and Gary Plummer then Ken Norton Jr. played RLB, but that did mean Woodall had to take on the strong side for about half the plays. So I'll give you the two guys in the last twenty-five years of the NFL, one of which I pointed out for you. But for the record, what did Woodall play for the Panthers? Ah, that's right, he played weak-side linebacker. Ditto for his season with the Broncos.



Addendum:
You got me so pissed off that a muscle in the back of my neck locked up. Can't remember that happening before.

 

excellent point. my thinking was screwy again. still if he can run over half of a D on the outside i think he can inside too.

>> FWIW, I don't think Foster can't run inside, but he's probably still best outside the 3 and 4 holes, off tackles and further out, than inside. When he's inside, he's looking to turn outside once he clears the LOS in a lot of cases. It's where he's best, and he can be most effective there, so I don't fault him for it.

i don't disagree with any of these statements. i do think he can run inside as well or better than most but it scares me to see him go up in there cuz i always afraind he gonna get the ball stripped.

 

>> BS, huh?

you said our defense last year was as good as the prior two years. i don't need stats or the mob behind me on this. your comment is remarkable BS.

 

Wow, that whole disagreement thing's a ************, isn't it? I'm glad I'm not the one using very basic comparisons to a player, a weight, etc to make a point, or calling people Scott Fowler, or else I'd be all bound up too. You're actually using as "proof", two coaches saying "he's like Derrick Brooks."
You never showed Fox saying he would play weakside, or Clayton/Pasq/anyone you deemed "worthy" saying "he'd be strictly a weakside player in the pros." That and telling me that I must admit I was wrong - what, for having an opinion that you don't agree with? You don't want him strong side. I got it - and I don't see this world opinion outcry to say that he's totally unable to play strong side linebacker. The rest is just you being annoyed, without reason.

 

I do think he's better using the seams and then playing one on one. And I'm fine with that...this idea that we're a power running team would mean that we go after power inline blockers, a Pro Bowl level FB, and run I-type techniques. We don't - we run finesse. And honestly, Shelton seems to like running that style too. That Foster's better on the angles and hitting the open field? It's not a problem, nor an indictment. It's cool with me, just as is the idea that we're not trying to emulate the 1965 USC pro-I.

But yeah, he made that Philly play because he strung it out, got the angle, kept his feet going, and for credit to your point, he gave impact and bounced off of it. A stellar run, just not an inside run. He's around 220, which makes him too small to play strongside linebacker :229031_ha but not too small to be tough inside. if he were less sloppy with his techniques, I don't think we'd have problems with the fumbling, and since we drilled that so much last year, I wanna say we lost like 1 fumble from the backs all year.


Speaking of which, I know they only have x amount of practice time to use, but it's always bizarre when you see something get neglected, and then fixed so strongly, in the terms of why the hell weren't they spending more time on that type fundamental already?