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Projected team strength and weaknesses

Discussion in 'Carolina Panthers' started by Thelt, May 26, 2005.

  1. Collin

    Collin soap and water

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    Find me a source that says so. I just did a quick search on Google to confirm and everything I've seen says that Ayodele is SLB and Smith is WLB. None of them mention the two switching during games. Perhaps you're thinking of when Ayodele exits in nickel and dime defenses.


    No, he never played strongside. I specifically worded it that way because I knew he had briefly played WLB, but not SLB. (for the record, Morgan played WLB at Miami) Like Witherspoon, there were questions about whether Morgan was better suited for WLB or MLB. Ultimately it was decided that both could play each position in a pinch, but Morgan was definitely better suited for MLB and Witherspoon was definitely better suited for WLB.


    Cover 2 is in reference to the positioning of their safeties and cornerbacks. The Dungee/Kiffin scheme also deals with the size and responsibilities of their front seven. Not only are the linebackers smaller than any other scheme, but the defensive linemen usually are as well. That's because they aren't expected to fill gaps like in pretty much every other defensive scheme, but rather have penetration responsibilities. If you'll look at the rosters and histories, Tampa and Indianapolis have used 280 pound DTs, where Atlanta is perhaps the only other team to do so. It's part of the scheme, and it is still unique (or as unique as something can be that's used in two places).


    The Brain:
    Say something intelligent or don't say anything at all. Theoretically I don't know that Ricky Manning can't bulk up to strongside linebacker, but it's fairly reasonable to assume on the basis of human physiology and knowledge of NFL history that it's unwise to expect a linebacker to gain more than the 10 pounds Davis already added, and honestly I doubt he'll even be able to hold that weight. Davis played at 220-225, and he'll probably play at 225-230 at the NFL level.

    And let's not forget the fact that Davis has below average upper body strength even for someone his size. Didn't he have the lowest number of reps on the bench of any linebacker at the combine?
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2005
  2. Black&Blue

    Black&Blue NKW

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    Find me a source that says so.

    I have no specific source for you. Even in the gamebooks the Jaguars don't specify between SLB or WLB in the lineup. But he has done it, that's my word. Take it if you want.


    No, he has never played strongside.
    http://http://www.panthers.com/team/teamRosterDetails.jsp?id=862
    ...First three starts came at weakside linebacker before injuries at the position necessitated a switch to the strongside where he posted his remaining eight starts...

    Tampa and Indianapolis have used 280 lb DTs

    As Carolina has w/ Kindal Moorehead. Al Wallace has lined up inside in certain situations. The concept of interior penetration has spread beyond Dungyland.
     
  3. ColinG

    ColinG Just Football Please

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    I still think Collin is winning on the facts but is quickly losing style points for the unneeded belittling of the opposing side. I like sacrasm as much as the next guy but when you are right stick to the high ground...just my opinion.
     
  4. Collin

    Collin soap and water

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    I don't. I'm not absolutely saying you're wrong because I don't know that for sure, but I suspect that you are. All the available evidence I've seen says Ayodele has only played SLB. I suspect you're actually thinking of Smith's role in nickel and dime defenses.


    Fair enough, my mistake. I forgot about Towns. But note that it says he switched only because of injuries. There were no better options for the team to fill in at SLB, so the team played Morgan out of position. They could also play Davis out of position this year, but we have other true SLBs on the roster.


    You know as well as everyone else does that Moorehead only played because Jenkins was injured. Normally we have Jenkins (335) and Buckner (315). And don't even try to pretend that Wallace has played DT on anything other than obvious passing downs. Many teams (like New Orleans for instance) will sub a DE at DT on third and long. I'm talking about base DTs and surely you know that. Indy's two starting DTs are both 285, and they have only one DT on the roster at more than 300 pounds. Tampa's are slightly larger at 290-300, but both their starting DEs are under 270.

    Seriously, are you just going to argue with everything I say at this point because you're mad about how bad you looked for saying there is no size difference between weakside and strongside? People have incorporated parts of the Dungee/Kiffin scheme, especially coverages, but no other team is using the whole thing.
     
  5. Collin

    Collin soap and water

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    Dude, neither side cares for your refereeing.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2005
  6. The Brain

    The Brain Defiler of Cornflakes

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    Ugh... you can be a tard sometimes. Did you simply return to regain the "I've gotta be always right" crown you've been without for a few years?

    Like I've said, you've offered no proof as to why he couldn't bulk up an additional 10 pounds. You can't see his damned frame. Its not as noticeable as say a lineman's would be. So what are you basing your information on? Please explain what in Thomas Davis' physiology, that you have first hand access to, that guys you the insite to imply he can't add 10 pounds. Hell I could give a hit if he plays strong or weak, I stated like 5 pages ago I felt he was better suited for weak, but YOU have ZERO, NOTHIN, NADA as far as being able to determine Thomas Davis's frame and how much weight he could add to it.
     
  7. Black&Blue

    Black&Blue NKW

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    All the available evidence I've seen says that Ayodele has only played SLB.

    But he hasn't. He was a WLB in the second half of 2003.
    http://www.jaguars.com/Story/3776.asp

    BTW, this kinda supports my opinion that SLB's don't always have to be bigger than WLB's, or the other way around.

    I don't expect you to believe me about Smith, and that's fine.

    Seriously, are you just going to argue about everything I say at this point because you're mad about how bad you looked about saying there is no size difference between weakside and strongside?

    No. I've been on the run because you just decided to shit on something I said days ago. I offered an opinion and, for whatever reason, you decided to turn it into a circus. It was a short commentary, with no agenda towards anyone, and you beat it to hell. All I'm doing is showing evidence to help support my own crazy theories. And I NEVER SAID there is no size difference between who's on the weakside or strongside, only that it isn't always one way or another. Don't start bending things to help make your rants look legit.


    BTW, ColinG, how is he winning on facts? If you like his opinion better, that's fine. But facts? C'mon. Haven't you been reading?
     
  8. HeadCase

    HeadCase dazed and confused

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    I took your first sentence above to say that our defense has not slid since
    Del Rio left. If that is not what you said, please clarify. This is a subject Mags and I have debated at length. If you have anything of intelligence to add I'm always willing to listen and am even willing to wade through all your self ego stroking BS, fortunate amnesia, Fowleresque observations, hysteria and monumental rudeness to gain some insight from you.

    I fully realized that Del Rio was not here in our SB year. Not saying that I didn't as I have recently made some embarrassingly bad blunders in names and numbers recently and they seem to be becoming more common with each passing post, but I really don't think I ever said that Del Rio was the coach during that time and challenge you to show where I did.

    Back when Mags and I argued the subject, I feared (and I use that word intentionally) Trog benefitted from the enthusiasm and high level of play that Del Rio achieved when he was here with the team and and that we were seeing that wear off last year. I'd assume that you would agree that our D last year was a microspec of the two prior years (though I thought you clearly said not), so I assume I'd hear the same long list of excuses that Mags and others presented in support of Trog, which had plenty of merit and hope. If not and you have other reasons or proof as you would have it that my fear is completely unreasonable and based in on grand stupidity, have at it. I'm always willing to be educated even while being told I am idiot and a jackass. Those are facts on which you and I do not dispute.

    And just for the record, I don't think you actually showed me any numbers. Perhaps you pointed the way to some but lacking first an understanding of what you said, even after rereading your post a second time, I've yet to muster up the interest and time for self study. And in any case, since we've both agreed that I'm an idiot, I don't think that we can safely assume that I can correctly interpret so any actual help from you is appreciated.

    OBTW, I'm so happy that you changed your mind and decided to continue to grace us with your humble opinions of yourself.
     
  9. Collin

    Collin soap and water

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    No. Actually I just finished editing our magazine and had nothing to do today. But for the record, I never lost my crown. I can see that you've gotten an inflated ego from beating up on Thelt, though.

    What proof have you offered that Davis can bulk up? There is no "evidence" either way. But there is historical precedent, and I don't know of any linebacker who has ever added more than 10 pounds between his final year of college and his first year as a pro. Players can add more than that over the course of a long career, but college linebackers play around their ideal weight because of the nature of their position. You don't see them adding a great deal of muscle mass prior to their rookie season because they've probably already got about as much as their frame can safely carry.

    You didn't know that Davis had already gained 10 pounds, and you're embarrassed at looking like a fool for not noticing where I had said that before you posted. Now you want me to believe that it's not unreasonable to think that Davis, a guy already in great physical condition, could add an additional 10 pounds of muscle mass? And tell me "The Brain" (what a misnomer that is), where did you bother to address my point about his substandard upper body strength?


    [​IMG]

    I realize that you know absolutely nothing about this, so that's why you think it's impossible, but scouts and even regular people can look at a player and make some determination about how they can fill out. When projecting additional weight you look for a long, slender frame with otherwise large bone structure. One of the giveaways is shoulder width, as guys with wider shoulders have more room to add weight on the upper body. Davis is just 6'1" and doesn't have a thick trunk, so the idea that he can add 20 pounds to his college playing weight is rather absurd.



    I was talking about last season when he was playing alongside Daryl Smith. That was the question, whether Smith had played SLB when Ayodele was the starter there.

    No, they don't always have to be bigger. But they almost always are. And why is that? Do you even understand what the differences are between a strongside and weakside linebacker? I've only explained it a million times in this thread, but no one seems to be paying attention anyway. The Cliff's Notes version is:

    Weakside linebackers are generally smaller, faster players who cover considerable ground and are expected to make plays on the ball either in coverage on pass plays or tackling runs. Strongside linebackers tend to be much larger and somewhat slower players because their primary responsibility is to engage the men in front of them. They initiate contact while weakside linebackers seek to avoid contact with anyone except the ballcarrier. Strongside linebackers usually have to jam the tight end on pass plays and crash blockers on running plays.

    Do you understand what those responsibilities mean? Strongside linebackers aren't much bigger on average for no reason. They're bigger because they're asked to engage even larger offensive players. It's somewhat akin to the responsibilities of a defensive tackle occupying blockers so that the middle and weakside linebackers can attack the ballcarrier.

    Now absolutely no one has even bothered to argue with me that Thomas Davis' skill set is suited for strongside linebacker. No one has explained how someone with such a low bench rep is suited for engaging and holding up offensive linemen. No one has explained how he's going to be effective in jamming the tight end. Meanwhile pretty much everyone acknowledges that his strengths are knifing through and making bone-crushing tackles, pretty much the m.o. of a weakside linebacker. We've also raved about his range, another attribute key to weakside linebackers which generally isn't necessary for strongside linebackers because they're engaging from the snap.

    So Davis is small but fast (WLB +), has good range (WLB +), has suspect upper body strength (SLB -), and is a playmaker (WLB +). Why is anyone even arguing with me on this? This is so stupid. It's like I inspire people to say the most stupid things in the world because all you want to do is disagree with me no matter how dumb you look in doing so.


    You said, "The whole size thing doesn't have much to stand on." Of course I subsequently gave you the odds that the size distribution could have just happened by accident and blew your argument completely to hell. There is a consistent size difference between strongside and weakside linebackers, and it's very, very rare to have a team where the strongside linebacker isn't bigger.


    I don't know, maybe because:
    #1) I showed you how statistically unlikely it is that strongside linebackers are heavier just by chance.
    #2) I pointed out that there have been only a handful of examples of someone as small as Davis playing SLB in the history of the modern NFL.
    #3) I showed you how Davis' playing weight was actually 220-225.
    #4) I pointed out that Davis' upper body strength is suspect when that is a critical attribute for a strongside linebacker.
    Etc.

    Uhm ... no. I was off by 3 pounds on Sirmon. You're the one who said that Sirmon and the rest were approximately the same size as Davis. Thus you were WAY farther off than I was.
     
  10. Collin

    Collin soap and water

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    During this "debate" about some kind of fall from Del Rio to Trgovac, you kept saying things like "The Panthers D last year was a microspec of what it the prior two years." That indicates that you thought Del Rio was here those prior two years when he wasn't.

    Microspec is not a word. Moreover, it's not close to anything resembling a word that I'm aware of. I assume you took the adjective "microscopic" and tried to make it a noun, but I'm not familiar with any such noun.

    That doesn't even make sense. A team plays well all year after a guy has left because the guy who left was that enthusiastic? I don't even know how to respond to that kind of "logic," and moreover, that kind of reasoning makes me question whether or not it's even possible to explain it to you.


    At the bottom of page 3 I said:
    "Under Del Rio in 2002:
    290.4 yards allowed and 302 points allowed
    Under Trgovac in 2003:
    295.3 yards allowed and 304 points allowed
    "
     

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