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Panthers: You don't produce, you don't start

Discussion in 'Carolina Panthers' started by LarryD, Sep 6, 2002.

  1. Tab Loyd

    Tab Loyd Guest

    I don't disagree, I just don't see why it's such a big concern. Even if Henning and Fox are flip-flopping. It's the first game of a long season. The quarterback ain't playing that great. Give him a kick in the ass to give him some urgency to get better. Get the attention of the team right before the season starts. We don't have much to lose. We're ranked dead last in pre-season predictions, last in the division and we're just trying to find a win.

    I think most of this is intended to provide payoff down the road. Last year the team did not get better as the season progressed. They became complacent as losses mounted up. I think Fox is saying he's not going to be complacent, and the people who are improving are the people who will play.

    The best question was the one about what happens if Muhammad keeps dropping passes, does Fox have the balls to sit him down? I certainly hope so. A little butt-kicking on occasion helps everybody do their best.
     
  2. hasbeens99

    hasbeens99 Guest

    Does he sit Moose if he continues to drop passes?

    Yep.

    How about some one on defense who misses a few tackles?

    Hmm. Probably depends on how many is 'a few'. But someone consistently giving up big plays because of poor tackling or bad execution? I think so.

    When does Terry hit the pine for allowing a few sacks?

    Or lining up offsides three or four times in a row? Yeah, I think Fox sends Tuten in before that gets too out of hand.

    Face it, Weinke's the most convienent scapegoat of the moment that more than anything is why he's sitting.

    I would agree with that statement in that Weinke is the highest profile player on offense, and as he should be the team leader, he takes responsibility for the team's execution on the field. If he starts getting after Moose for dropping balls or Hoover for missing a block or for Smith for running a bad route, then the punishment defers to the guilty party. But the first guy called on the carpet in this punitive system is the leader.

    Does Fox have the balls to sit any one else or does he say message sent and end the benchings with Weinke? If not he'll undermine any confidence the team has in him. This still can backfire big time...

    I agree completely. He's sent his statement. And this team has a few players who might want to test his resolve. I wouldn't recommend it, but they will. And yeah, I believe he'll pull the trigger again. If he doesn't, like you said--the whole thing will backfire on him, and he'll be no better than Seifert was with 'his guys'. Leaders can't afford double standards. The boundaries get too hazy.
     
  3. Wiggin

    Wiggin Guest

    >>The mixed signals are plain to see, don't ask what or where. There are three different things going around, three plain and clear ideas. The point of it is this: some of the reports say that Fox was never sold on Weinke.

    I still don't see it. You are basing this on 3rd or 4th hand reports from a known rumor-monger. I just don't see the mixed signals you think you do.

    >>y2 had a hell of a point as well - it's Weinke's job to learn, but it's also the staff's job to teach. Hell, Musgrave spent an offseason in Arizona helping Lewis. You don't think it's too much to ask for Henning or McCoy to call once or twice to see how it's going?

    I completely agree that it is the staffs job to teach as much as Weinke's to learn. But what makes you say they are not teaching? Has anyone, Weinke or otherwise, said the staff is not teaching? In fact, I think this benching is one of the teaching tools they are using. I don't even know what you are trying to say with that last statement, so I'll let it be :p .

    >>it's not as if I'm all about Weinke. But he's still our most talented and able player. A little struggle like the last two weeks isn't out of the question if you're looking to develop a player, and there's a concern that they're not looking to do so in a timely manner.

    True, he probably is our most talented and able QB at this time, but he is still playing like piss and has not played like he's the most talented QB. It's not just the last two weeks that he has struggled either. Go back to last season, and show me where he didn't struggle after that 1st game...especially once teams learned he couldn't handle the blitz. It has been ongoing, and I am glad Fox is giving him a chance to clear his head and gain a different perspective on whats happening during the game.

    >>No it's not Wiggin. It's about WINNING according to them, right? And both Y2 and Piper are making points to the basic fact that Rodney isn't our best possible shot if we saw this coming.

    And I think they are wrong. Can you honestly say that Weinke has shown anything to warrant he can win in this league, yet? He has consistently made poor decisions, locked on receivers, and dumped the ball off too quickly when the going gets tough. Don't get me wrong, I think in time he can be decent, but based on what he has shown, he shouldn't be out there. Heck, even in those two pre-season games where he looked good, he still was only able to lead us to one touchdown. True he had some drops, but so did everyone else. At least Peete gives us someone who has been through the fire and survived, and showed he can win a game in this league. True, not many and it has been a while, but Weinke doesn't even have that going for him. And I think forcing him to stay in the fire could ultimately do more harm than good.

    I understand the concern everyone has with Peete in there, I'm concerned as well, but at worst he should be able to avoid the basic mistakes that Weinke is proven to make and put us in a better position to win. So yes, I believe he gives us the best chance at on win Sunday. Do I want him in there long term? No! Do I think he can lead us to the playoffs? Of coarse not! But do I think he can give us a better chance to win for a game or two? Yes! He's no more than a placeholder for a game or two while Weinke regroups and learns to make better decisions.
     
  4. VOR

    VOR Guest

    Looks to me like we got a coaching staff in over their heads. To me it would seen that by the beginning of august the coaches would have know if winky knew the playbook or not, this smells of of someone drawing plays in the sand and not telling everyone, then goin "I don't believe he don't know how to do that". Coach Fox is right to suck up to the fans that'll save his job.
     
  5. magnus

    magnus Chump-proof

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    >>You are basing this on 3rd or 4th hand reports from a known rumor-monger. I just don't see the mixed signals you think you do.

    Chuck Howard? Sure, Fanball or whoever it is, they suck. But there are still too many mixed signals. Some people see a ballsy move and are lapping it up. Fine, but I don't see a plan here at all and I for one actually do want to see a plan in place rather than just trusting the guy because he wears a headset and looks animated.
     
  6. Piper

    Piper Guest



    I'd argue Peete's been through the fire, and has gotten burned.

    Again, this is less about Weinke. It's partially about developing him, but IF they saw this coming, they should have gotten a better backup than Peete. If you think you got to make a switch, particuarly this early, better to get a switch that can get it done.


    Actually they should have gotten a better backup than Peete if Bret Farve was our QB, really. I mean, Gruden is coming in with a new offense in Tampa. He's didn't go for Peete. He went with an existing starter, Rob Johnson, and Shawn King in his back pocket. He went with guys with more physical ability.

    On some extemely talanted teams, he's had some very mediocre stats. On some average teams, he's had bad stats. And that's when he wasn't a couple of years away from a social security check.

    That's the bottom line. It was a sin to bring in Peete just because he knows the offense, even if we have an established starter. It's worse now that we don't.
     
  7. magnus

    magnus Chump-proof

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    yep. The lack of any reasonable plan in this regard goes back to March. Plus we didn't even bother having Lytle compete.
     
  8. Wiggin

    Wiggin Guest

    And yet, Weinke's been burned worse.

    Again, this is less about Weinke. It's partially about developing him, but IF they saw this coming, they should have gotten a better backup than Peete. If you think you got to make a switch, particuarly this early, better to get a switch that can get it done.[/QUOTE]

    The thing is, is that I don't think they saw it coming. I believe they saw a somewhat raw QB who has tools to work with, but struggled with some of the basic elements of the game (blitz pick-ups for example). So with a complete off-season, and a year's worth of experience to look back on, it was reasonably assumed he would show some development. Therefore, rather than a possible replacement, he needed someone who can show him the ropes. This is where Peete comes in, he is experienced, has shown a willingness to mentor other QB's, and probably most importantly, was cheap. We really did not have the money to just sign whomever we wanted. Not to mention that most of the other QB's available are not known to be exceptionally good themselves, and would want to eventually start...being less likely to be a good mentor to the player we deemed our QB of the future.

    As for the timing this year, Weinke didn't show his problems were still present until the 3rd game when defenses started to show more looks. So, sure, Weinke passed the test against vanilla defenses, but he showed signs of trouble the first time things were changed up on him. But the question was, is that just one bad game, or is he still having the same problems he had last year? That's why they had to see how he handled himself in the Cleveland game. If they would have made the decision earlier, it would have been somewhat knee-jerk, instead they waited to evaluate him further and see how he responded, and he struggled badly again. So they determined he needs more time before being put in the fire again.

    Personally, I agree with the decision because I think Weinke needs to step back and clear the cobwebs. He has been somewhat shell-shocked since he got here and never really had an opportunity to watch and learn. I do think he will respond well, and earn his spot back by the 2nd or 3rd game. but if not, well, maybe he just does not have what it takes to be a starting level QB in this league. But we have tried the trial by fire tact with him and it failed, so lets see what the sit and watch tact does.
     
  9. SandMan

    SandMan Guest

    He's never been a factor - he's got no game...
     
  10. magnus

    magnus Chump-proof

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    He did better in games than Craig did
     

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