Over the past few weeks

I've been thinking that maybe our secondary IS as much of a problem as we worried it would be coming into training camp.

Several of our fourth quarter collapses - Green Bay, Arizona, Dallas, Tampa, and New Orleans (that's all of them) have come during the final 2 minutes of the game in obvious passing situations. They've killed us.

So then Fox said at his PC today:

The secondary was an area that we had a concern with before the season started. Any mistakes that are made in that area are magnified, especially late in games.

and

On the talent level of the Panthers secondary: I don’t think you are ever totally satisfied with the talent level. It is part of our job. But we have the talent to win. We’ve just got to hone in our skills. I think the fact that we have been in position to win eight out of nine games shows how close we are. Now, we just have to learn to finish. I don’t think it is as much mental as people make it out to be. I think it is a physical game. You have got to make plays. We have made plays that were negated by penalties. There are a lot of different things that you have to overcome, especially late in the fourth quarter. We just have to work at it harder.

He's basically laying it all on the defense, and on the secondary. I have to agree. Basically all of those late collapses have come at the hands of Grant, McDaniel, or Howard.

Makes you wonder what's gonna happen next year.

 

it's the only spot we can really upgrade after this year - if we don't keep Navies, we'll be forced to use Witherspoon and hope he'll be ready.

But how much do we put into it? To have a decent offense and keep an eye on a QB, and still get a top flight corner, will take a little more FA work than we'd expect.

So we might have to go buy a receiver even though the smart money's on a first round guy. SO we'll overpay for Price and reach for Ragone, I guess, then pick a second round CB and neglect TE. Either way I would really rather get a FA RT still.

Good topic. I was thinking the other day that our secondary isn't so bad. But when it's crunch time, it's really not that good. We're not good in the nickel at all, because cover two becomes harder for our corners - turns more into man on the nickel side.


To tell the truth, much as I like most of the TEs in the draft this year, we might be in need of a vet here as well. That is if we don't think Mangum's enough, and no, he's not. Jerame Tuman might be a good value.

Flozell Adams or Luke Pettitgout (a Giant) would be okay at RT.

If we made these two moves, we'd be better off as far as what we'd need in the third and fourth, but the first and second would still have to be amongst QB, CB, and WR. I can't see it making sense to buy a FA without waiting for the draft first - unless we were looking to get rid of Muhammad after another year. Then it'd make sense to pay for a Donald Driver or Peerless Price and still draft a WR first if the right one's there. Personally I'd rather put money on a Gadsden and wait for the draft.

Meanwhile if we went WR first we'd be shat of a quality CB till the third because we'd still need a young QB. Second is where I'd want to go with a QB, and CB is not a good first round value. Third round probably wouldn't have enough impact.

SO would we want to go get a FA CB? Bly might be somewhat reasonable. McAllister is overrated and expensive. Mario Edwards has C2 experience but wouldn't be much extra impact. Not much else out there.

 

I saw an interview with Peerless Price last week where he stated his #1 objective was to resign with the Bills- so he's probally out of the picture and I can't see driver coming here either with no QB to get him the ball.

I don't want to spend to high of a pick on a cb.-We have Anderson coming back maybe? I read a good piece on him the other day in the observer and he talks as though he's changed his life for the better. I also read where Terry Fair wants to resign with us. I think if both of those players can come in healthy and ready to play we would have 4 CB's that I'm reasonablly confident in. Add to that another year of experience for Dante Wesley and I think we allright at corner. Atleast it won't be considered a weakness IMHO.

In free agency- I would love to see an overhaul on the O-Line's right side and a legit WR signed.

Hopefully we can sign a reasonable priced FA QB to start but, the list is short so resigning Peete to mentor his fellow USC alum and 1st round pick Carson Palmer might be the route we go.

My draft wish list is 1.QB 2.WR or 1.WR's Rogers or Williams 2.QB

 

I think people are looking for a scapegoat, and our secondary is the easy target. After all, everyone was saying this was going to be our weak spot anyway, so it is easy to lay the blame squarely on their laps, especially with all the big pass plays they give up at the end of games. However, I have to disagree with this viewpoint, in fact, I actually like what I see from them overall. I put only limited blame of our 4th quarter collapses on the secondary. Sure the CB's have given up some key plays, but for whatever reason the help they had all game long is taken away from them. The problem as I see it is that we change our style of play in the last two minutes of a game.

For 58 minutes our entire defense plays aggressively, but in the final 2 minutes we go into a modified prevent "D." It's not a true prevent where everyone is playing soft and additional DB's are in there to "prevent" a big play, but one where the Safeties play back and do not help out in coverage underneath.

We go away from what was working all game. In essence we are basically playing 9 on 11, so of coarse a receiver will be able to find the open spot...especially on slants where we have no help in the middle of the field. I have little doubt that if we ever start keeping our gameplan the same in the final 2 minutes as what was working the first 58, we will see the defense make the stops at the end of a game. Until then we are just inviting the opponent to march down the field on us.

 

I don't think we can honestly blame the DL for lack of pressure, Wiggin. We can't rightly point at the linebackers, other than Witherspoon and Minter and Grant at the end of the Dallas game, it's been against corners I believe. It's been a little surprising the way Grant and Minter have had such off games at times, but I'd say that speaking for the masses around here we'd been very happy with the secondary - enough so that it took a while to realize where the problem in the end of the game comes from.

It's corners or coaching. The spot we're least talented at is corner, and we're less talented when we're spread out late. Since we've gotten burned both blitzing and laying back playing zone like always, it's either get guys who are competent cover two guys that can still play strong man to be able to counter our late game problems, or get a lot more depth and competition in here so we'll know we have three to four guys to develop as if starters. I can't say the defensive playcalling is excellent, but we're overall prepared and sometimes we make the wrong call for the situation. Teams tend to over-protect against us late, and sit back and wait for a guy to get open enough to force a pass in there. We can't very well add to the rush so now it's time to expect less of the corners we currently have aod do the right thing - go get another guy.

Palmer's good but his attitude is a real put off. The difference between him and Boller isn't much IMO, just name brand versus grassroots movement, and neither will be the 2nd best QB - nor will either be good enough to be a high first round pick by anyone's estimation unless some major things happen. I'd rather not choose Palmer in the high first if we can possibly help it.

 

>> the hands of Grant, McDaniel, or Howard

Grant's play is really improving. He is a strength, not an issue. I think Minter would be more of an issue, but we certainly have bigger issues. McDaniel pretty much sucks. Howard got ate up by Stallworth. We could use a bigger corner. Wesley and Anderson could fit the bill. I don't look to see Anderson in a Panther's uniform again. Hope I am wrong. Don't know much about Fair. I'd like to see Howard slip into the nickel role and McDaniel shipped outa here.

I think FB is gonna be a bigger issue that TE. Hoover is a weak link.

We need depth on the defensive line and to sign Buckner. Burton is the pits.

 

I don't know why Minter has struggled. By week 9 you should grasp the D. He's not one to loaf or make dumb mistakes, the mistakes you'd expect Grant to make. Of course, he takes a lot of flak for young guys in front of him who make mistakes and he's there almost making up for it.

Howard's not small. Wesley's certainly freakish for a CB. Speed is probably a nice thing to have too, but a Will Allen won't make it in this D either. It's hard to say, we'll probably need a vet with C2 experience.

To me, it seems hard to read how we'd use FBs or TEs. You can't often find either that can block well but still streak downfield, and other than Hoover's dives I can't remember either position being used much other than deep stuff (odd). If we used either as chain movers in the passing game I'd have a better feel for what we want in either, save blocking.

Buckner's got one more year. He's not terribly young, so anything more than a couple years extra is pushing.
Burton didn't look that bad this week IMO. He wasn't caught out of position like in preseason.

 

>> To me, it seems hard to read how we'd use FBs or TEs.

Understandable. I have a hard time watching those positions save the results of plays where they get the ball, which is rare. FB seems to be mostly a blocker in our offense this year and Hoover's blocking seems woeful. Shouldn't the FB win most 1 v 1 battles with LBs? Many of our running plays seem to break down when he misses a block. TE is a concern. I think we'd use TE more but I think neither Walls nor Magnum are getting open much (did have 2 TDs to TEs this game and nealy a third to Magnum -- stopped at the 1). And Magnum's hands are questionable. His blocking in pretty good though. I'm just thinking that with emphasis on running game that FB would be priority over TE. But both are gonna be big needs. Walls needs to retire.

>> Buckner's got one more year.

That is good news. I'd take 2 more good years from him. How old is he?

>> Burton didn't look that bad this week IMO.

Early in the game he was getting crushed off LOS by one lineman. As game progressed for some reason he started standing his ground better. Surprisingly got some pressure on QB a few times, usually as a result of a stunt and Peppers drawing so much attention. But the thing that really stood out was his lack of quickness and agility. He had Deuce and Brooks lined up a few times and they ran around him like he was a practice cone. He gave good effort but was a huge drop off. Gilbert was much better, if that's telling ya anything about my opinion. We will definately need to upgrade our depth here. Who do we have behind him now -- oh yeah, that Hawaiian guy they just signed off some practice squad. Wonder how bad he is.

I don't understand defensive schemes. What is it that we changed at the end of the NO game? We blitzed a couple times but it never got there and Brooks would just scramble through it for 15-20 yds when he did get pressured. Outside of Fields who is okay, our blitzers seem to suck. Grant is horrible at blitzing and the corners don't bring much. Naives seems okay but I think they prefer to drop him in coverage where he seems to excel. Their OL was impresive ad handled our pass rush really well all game. Peppers got some pressure occassionally but Brooks was usually able to evade and throw away. I'm thinking it is more with a change in coverage at end of game and maybe the DL being tired and not getting as much pressure. Safeties dropping further back? Didn't understand why Howard had single coverage on Stallworth on that long play over the middle and then he has so much running run (Minter, by the way, misses tackle and Stallworth goes for another 20 yds). Seems like you could be doubling Horne and Stallworth if you are not blitzing. Was this a breakdown in coverage by one of the 2 safeties? Two huge penalties didn't help. The one on Howard was pretty bogus. They never showed the call on Cousins which negated Peppers sack. Peppers is exciting.

I thought Witherspoon held up pretty well for his first start at MLB. He certainly wasn't close to Morgan and is nothing more than a stop-gap at MLB. But he did make some nice plays and I think brought much more and much more consistently than either Jackson or Allen. He had a couple of big plays to stop drives that come to mind: one on pass he batted down and nearly intercepted on 3rd down, and on another 3rd down he made an awesome open field tackle after a short pass just short of sticks. He is a decent backup at the position. Maybe better than Towns, especially if you have Buckner in front of him.

 

I'd actually widen it to DB's or coaching, but I'm definitely with you in that sentiment, Mags. But I've gotta admit, I'm starting to lean more toward coaching than the players.

I know it's blasphemous to point a finger at JDR, and for 58 minutes, he's one of, if not the best young DC in the NFL. I think I'd take him over Jim Mora Jr. But when 5 of your 6 losses come the same way at the same point in the game, to me that says 'system' more than 'players'.

Our secondary is much improved from last year, but they're not yet good enough to overcome being out of position. I'm not saying they're definitely out of position. I haven't watched a game all season, and unless someone sends me a tape I won't get to. But it seems to me like JDR's 2 minute defense is where we're being killed. Either we're out of position, or we don't have the talent to execute it. Either way, he must adapt his 2 minute defense to the talent he has to work with, else he's no better than Seifert was with last year's offense. Well that's a little overboard, but you get my point.

As bad as we are, the simple fact remains that if you eliminate the last 2 - 4 minutes of the game we're 8-1 and among the elite. Sure injuries and a one-two-three-kick offense are major contributors to defensive breakdowns, but I think at least some of the blame has to rest with JDR.

 

Oh, I agree 100% with this. My point is that throughout the game, our Safeties play more aggressive in both pass and run support. The same plays that burn our corners in the final 2 minutes are better covered with Safety help the rest of the game. I just see the bigger problem being that our end of game scheme is to play the Safeties back to defend against the big play, effectively taking them out of anything underneath. That would be fine if our corners were better at one-on-one coverage, but that's not their strength. So while I am not blind to the shortcomings of our secondary, I don't understand why we go away from what is working to something that accentuates our weaknesses.

I can't argue that it would be nice to have corners that are better in single coverage, but we don't. And while it would be ideal to find one in FA or the draft, we have other bigger needs that need our dollars or early picks. Even with their weaknesses our secondary has played very well as a group for 58 minutes a game, the only time they are exposed is when we change the scheme.

Basically, we take away Safety help from the corners to have the Safeties play back. While the rest of the 9 defenders are still playing with aggression, the Safeties go into a prevent mode to make sure the offense does not have a big play. But the problem with that is it leaves our corners in single coverage while also opening up the middle of the field underneath the deep safeties.