Low Point?

Who do we have?

QB: Hitched our wagon to someone neither you or I think will be good, but the team is committed to him starting for at least the next four years, which will also prevent us from looking in other directions or bringing in competition.

HB: Stewart is talented, though injury-prone. We have two more years with him before needing to pay huge bucks if he's going to stay around. Goodson is also under contract for that period, so this is the one position where we do have young talent, but unfortunately HB is also the easiest place to find young talent.

FB: Jury is out on Fiammetta.

TE: Rosario is already RFA, so if he breaks out into something actually useful then he'd have to get a payday. Who else is here?

WR: Gettis can run streaky routes, but LaFell hasn't shown anything yet. We've spent picks here but have nothing to show for it.

OL: Gross is getting older and overpaid. Wharton is getting older and overpaid. Kalil is young and talented but about to eat up a lot of cap space. Otah is under contract for two more years, but obviously has injury concerns. Jeff & Kalil have worked out more or less, but the other draft picks at guard haven't done squat.


DE: Johnson is going to cost a fortune and might be a one-year wonder, while Brown was a waste, and Hardy showed flashes but hasn't proven anything yet.

DT: Black hole of suck.

LB: Beason is the best player on the roster, but not truly elite, and he's going to require an enormous contract after this season. The other draft picks here really haven't shown much.

CB: Gamble is aging, grotesquely overpaid, and probably just mediocre in performance. Munnerlyn has been a nice surprise, but is probably best suited to nickel duty.

S: There is some decent young talent here, although we obviously haven't had any breakout stars.

 

For overall young and roster quality, you need to hit on a decent percentage of your draft picks. Obviously you're going to miss on some, but you have to hit on enough to maintain a talent level without blowing up your salary cap. Let's look back at the last five drafts:


2010 1 2 16 48 Jimmy Clausen QB Notre Dame
2 3 14 78 Brandon LaFell WR Louisiana State
3 3 25 89 Armanti Edwards WR Appalachian State
4 4 26 124 Eric Norwood LB South Carolina
5 6 6 175 Greg Hardy DE Mississippi
6 6 29 198 David Gettis WR Baylor
7 6 33 202 Jordon Pugh DB Texas A&M
8 6 35 204 Tony Pike QB Cincinnati
9 7 16 223 R.J. Stanford DB Utah
10 7 42 249 Robert McLain DB Connecticut
2009 1 2 11 43 Everette Brown DE Florida State
2 2 27 59 Sherrod Martin DB Troy
3 3 29 93 Corvey Irvin DT Georgia
4 4 11 111 Mike Goodson RB Texas A&M
5 4 28 128 Tony Fiammetta RB Syracuse
6 5 27 163 Duke Robinson T Oklahoma
7 7 7 216 Captain Munnerlyn DB South Carolina
2008 1 1 13 13 Jonathan Stewart RB Oregon
2 1 19 19 Jeff Otah T Pittsburgh
3 3 4 67 Charles Godfrey DB Iowa
4 3 11 74 Dan Connor LB Penn State
5 5 6 141 Gary Barnidge TE Louisville
6 6 15 181 Nick Hayden DT Wisconsin
7 7 14 221 Hilee Taylor LB North Carolina
8 7 34 241 Geoff Schwartz T Oregon
9 7 43 250 Mackenzy Bernadeau G Bentley
2007 1 1 25 25 Jon Beason LB Miami (FL)
2 2 13 45 Dwayne Jarrett WR USC
3 2 27 59 Ryan Kalil C USC
4 3 20 83 Charles Johnson DE Georgia
5 4 19 118 Ryne Robinson WR Miami (OH)
6 5 18 155 Dante Rosario TE Oregon
7 5 27 164 Tim Shaw LB Penn State
8 7 16 226 C.J. Wilson DB Baylor
2006 1 1 27 27 DeAngelo Williams RB Memphis
2 2 26 58 Richard Marshall DB Fresno State
3 3 24 88 James Anderson LB Virginia Tech
4 3 25 89 Rashad Butler T Miami (FL)
5 4 24 121 Nate Salley DB Ohio State
6 5 23 155 Jeff King TE Virginia Tech
7 7 26 234 Will Montgomery G Virginia Tech
8 7 29 237 Stanley McClover DE Auburn


2010: Ugh
2009: Munnerlyn, Martin, and Goodson are contributors, but nothing special.
2008: Stewart, Otah, and Godfrey are contributors, but nothing special.
2007: Beason, Kalil, and and Johnson (at least for one season) all hit. Good draft.
2006: Williams eventually hit, but his value is reduced because of the Stewart pick. Otherwise ugh.


And for the sake of comparison, let's compare that with a team I do believe to have young talent in the Baltimore Ravens:

2010 1 2 11 43 Sergio Kindle LB Texas
2 2 25 57 Terrence Cody DT Alabama
3 3 6 70 Ed Dickson TE Oregon
4 4 16 114 Dennis Pitta TE Brigham Young
5 5 25 156 David Reed WR Utah
6 5 26 157 Arthur Jones DT Syracuse
7 6 25 194 Ramon Harewood T Morehouse (GA)
2009 1 1 23 23 Michael Oher T Mississippi
2 2 25 57 Paul Kruger DE Utah
3 3 24 88 Lardarius Webb DB Nicholls State
4 5 1 137 Jason Phillips LB Texas Christian
5 5 13 149 Davon Drew TE East Carolina
6 6 12 185 Cedric Peerman RB Virginia
2008 1 1 18 18 Joe Flacco QB Delaware
2 2 24 55 Ray Rice RB Rutgers
3 3 8 71 Tavares Gooden LB Miami (FL)
4 3 23 86 Tom Zbikowski DB Notre Dame
5 3 36 99 Oniel Cousins G Texas-El Paso
6 4 7 106 Marcus Smith WR New Mexico
7 4 34 133 David Hale T Weber State
8 6 40 206 Haruki Nakamura DB Cincinnati
9 7 8 215 Justin Harper WR Virginia Tech
10 7 33 240 Allen Patrick RB Oklahoma
2007s 1 5 0 0 Jared Gaither T Maryland
2007 1 1 29 29 Ben Grubbs G Auburn
2 3 10 74 Yamon Figurs WR Kansas State
3 3 23 86 Marshall Yanda G Iowa
4 4 35 134 Antwan Barnes LB Florida International
5 4 38 137 Le'Ron McClain RB Alabama
6 5 37 174 Troy Smith QB Ohio State
7 6 33 207 Prescott Burgess LB Michigan
2006 1 1 12 12 Haloti Ngata DT Oregon
2 2 24 56 Chris Chester C Oklahoma
3 3 23 87 David Pittman DB Northwestern State (LA)
4 4 14 111 Demetrius Williams WR Oregon
5 4 35 132 P.J. Daniels RB Georgia Tech
6 5 13 146 Dawan Landry DB Georgia Tech
7 5 34 166 Quinn Sypniewski TE Colorado
8 6 34 203 Sam Koch P Nebraska
9 6 39 208 Derrick Martin DB Wyoming
10 7 11 219 Ryan LaCasse LB Syracuse

See the difference? Lots more contributors, and lots more legitimate stars. That's how you build a roster.

 

I know right?
I dunno. I think we have holes, but the idea that we have no talent seems a lot different than what I see. I mean, I can break it down later but outside our mortgaging picks and over investment in QBs, I don't find much doom in this.

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk

 

One of the reasons you so often lose these arguments is that you rely on exaggeration and misrepresentation. For instance, going from my statement about "There is not a lot of young talent on this roster" to your characterization of my statement as "the idea that we have no talent."

 

Ding, Ding, Ding. Round 1 goes to Magnus.

 

My lowpoint was Pam Oliver accidentally calling my wife.

 

well, we should make a point to argue about the differences between me saying "not a lot" and "no" and "not much".

We haven't hit every pick, but we've got young talent. You've left out a bit, and regardless of whether Newton's ready right now, I've always said he has talent. We haven't signed a real free agent other than Shockey in like three fucking years, which really changes things, but I don't think it's Schwartz' fault there wasn't a veteran tackle on staff in a year where we cut any veteran backup and 1/2 of our veteran starters, and it doesn't make Schwartz a worse lineman for it.

 

Like who?

 

plenty of guys. First, you either downgraded or dismissed about a third of these guys, dismissed the young linemen, the entire 2011 draft... so about a quarter of the roster was written off for various reasons.

I look at the same roster and see a lot of positivity. I don't think that because a player hasn't done anything in year 1 or 2 that that player is never going to do anything, and clearly that's rarely the case in success. Happens every year on this team, even in the disaster that was 2010 we had new breakouts. You need only look at the last few major failure years to notice that plenty of players picked up out of them that went on to do good things.


sorry to say what a bunch of others have already said, but most of us look at this roster overall, see a new staff, and see opportunity. At least here, every time, there's been significant growth on new staff. Between that, not thinking most of our roster is terrible, and maybe more than 3 veterans on staff, and maybe we'll actually be respectable at some point. I don't know why that's so hard to believe in.


Also Johnson's not a one year wonder, he's just getting more time now. He's been productive, and my guess is it's not his fault he played a lot of 2009 DT because of Brown.

 

Just name names. You post bluster and generalities, but I have to just guess what players you think I'm underrating or leaving out. I posted the information showing that Carolina is shit over the last five drafts compared to a team like Baltimore. I named the players out of those drafts that are legitimate contributors. By all means, convince me with an actual argument, evidence, and data that I'm being too hard on the team. If you think I should have named more, then specifically say which ones you would add and why. I would love to be convinced that there is hope for this team in the near future, but I've spent the last month looking at and writing about NFL rosters, and it left me feeling bad about the Panthers in comparison.

Fine, but you've always been a head-up-the-ass homer for this team. Always. I guess unrealistically hyping players is what you think a fan should be, but I don't. The reality is that the Panthers have not gotten nearly as much out of the last five drafts as good teams, and repeated draft failures obviously hurts your level of young talent. It's also worth noting that this team still has the same GM that has been consistently fucking it up for a while now. That said, I've stated that I believe the coaching hires were good with the possibility of being great, unfortunately I just think it's too little too late. I guess we'll see.

Couldn't you wait at least a few posts between me pointing out how you exaggerate and misrepresent what people say, and you going back to that tendency? It's annoying and pointless. The roster isn't terrible. In fact, in the Newton piece for our mag I make the point that the roster is nowhere near as bad as you would expect for most teams drafting #1 overall. But the problem is that a lot of what talent the Panthers have is already middle-aged by NFL standards. It's an incredibly young team overall, but just because all the backups are new. Gross, Steve Smith, Gamble, etc are on the downsides of their careers. Stewart, Kalil, Beason, Johnson, etc are at their peaks and have maybe a couple of years at that level, then they'll be in decline too. Actually it is kind of interesting that we have so many guys who spent four years in college instead of coming out as juniors or redshirt sophomores. That can give guys extra maturity and polish, but also means a little shorter pro career.

Fair enough. I hope he can keep it up since the team will have to pay out the ass to keep him.