Keyshawn dropped

Funny you should bring that up. This is from another forum:

But the thing is NFL DB's used to be Division 1 DB's. In this years draft he played against Chris Houston, Leon Hall, Marcus McCauley(although he was probably covered by richard marshall referring to last years SC/Fresno game), Aaron Ross, Daymeion Hughes, Michael Griffin, Sabby Piscatelli, Michael Johnson, and from last year off the top of my head Michael Huff and Richard Marshall.


Pat Kirwan has him going 19th to Tenn (as of now) and say's this:
Jarrett scores touchdowns and is a very big target in the red zone. Some people have Jarrett out of the first round, but here's a guy who scored a touchdown once every five receptions.

Did you see the Rose Bowl? ...... There's a saying something like - big time players step up in big time games, and that's exactly what this young man did in one of college footballs biggest games. Caught 11 passes for 205 yards and two touchdowns. A likely 1st rd pick who played against Jarrett in the game had this to say:

"He was as advertised," Hall said, referring to Jarrett. "He's a playmaker. We saw it on film, and we saw it today." ...... Leon Hall DB Michigan

A quote taken from the pro-day workouts page over at NFL.com:
His 4.67 and 4.62 in the 40 are exactly the same times Jerry Rice clocked when he worked out at the Combine in February 1985 on grass at Arizona State University

 

Smith hit that guy once, and broke his nose, after he had been taunting him, kind of. The "beating" and "serious injuries" was hype from the guy's agent. It was still a serious thing, but he addressed it.

KJ has had this pattern his whole career, and apparently had a whole string of little mini-incidents for the Panthers.

 

I am not a big fan of releasing Weshon without confirming that someone worth a fuck is ready to take the #2 spot. Carter nor Colbert have proven capable yet and Jarret is an unknown.
Robinson is the darkhorse in all this and it wouldn't shock me to see him start with Jarret #3...but obviously I am not sold on Jarret.

 

DING! DING! DING! WE HAVE A WINNER!

Wow -- two starting receivers who are under 5'10". That could be fun.

 

Wow.... gee.... I guess I will try to respond to this as much as possible, but you go to sleep and then to work and you find out you are an idiot and never knew

Ok, the numbers....
Key's numbers last year were like this:
Catches Yards TD 20+ 40+ 1st
70 815 4 8 1 42
Moose's numbers since becoming a starter (while with Carolina) extrapolated over a 16 game season look like this:
82 1092 6.7 16 2 53
But that's not fair, before Fox they were WCO...so in the Fox era:
74 1090 7.8 21 2 54
But that is bumped up by his big year.... so without the gigantor year:
65 916 3.3 19 2 43

So, now you are right, the numbers are VERY similar. But that doesn't change the facts that
1.) Moose was a #1 receiver playing the #2 role (and still is a #1 after leaving Carolina)
2.)In no way Key as good for us as Moose, numbers be damned.(which is what I said, ignorance and all)

If Smith went down with Moose here, Moose was capable of putting up an All-Pro year. I don't feel that Key is....therefore not as good for us!

What I said was:

Look up the word "or" and "consecutive" not sure you are familiar with either. That would be one sentence, not "consecutive "ones. Also I said they walked a safety into the box "or" rolled away. As in, didn't have to cover Key deep since he couldn't get there (as is upheld by his stunning 11.6 ypc as compared to Moose's 14.6 under Fox). Those "magical" safeties were doing different things on different plays.... damnedest thing!

This is potentially incorrect, but not a lie, nor lunacy. I can only speak to what I see on TV, and what I saw was very few safeties over the top, and a bunch in the box and over Steve.

Never said we didn’t, THIS YEAR.

3 years remaining on a 4-year deal, dip shit. Very comparable to Jenkins 3 years left on his contract.

Lewis is on a 2 year 3.9 mil contract (about 1.95 per give or take)
Key was on a 4 year 14 mil contract (about 3.5 per year)

Jenks has 3 of a 5 year 31 mil extention remaining (6.2 ish per)
Difference of about .75 mil Combined with the fact we have plenty of cap room THIS YEAR! And Jenks getting the “lets talk about you staying” chat set up right after the draft…. thought there might be a connection. This was speculation on my part. Forgive me for my misconduct, douche bag.

Don’t break your neck sucking your own dick there Sparky. Some around here might have you pegged as hot shit, but to me you are just some guy.

k, lets play the stats game again:

Catches Yards YPC TD 20+ 40+ 1st
Keyshawn 70 815 11.6 4 8 1 42
Antonio Gates: 71 924 13.0 9 14 1 49
Algie Crumpler 56 780 13.9 8 13 2 38
Then there is Ben Watson, who only played 13 games, but for the point of discussion, stretch his to 16 and:
Ben Watson 60 791 13.1 4 12 2 39

You are right, even the good TE’s are nothing like Key…they can get down the field better.

Now, before I get pegged as the anti-Key guy. I reiterate…. we are not a better team for having done this. We are also not considerably worse.

He was brought it to be the extra push to the Super Bowl, and he wasn’t that. We are moving on.

 

Most idiots don't.

I don't know where you invented your supposed numbers, but here are the real ones since Steve Smith became a starter in '02:

2002 - 63 rec, 823 yds, 3 tds
2003 - 54 rec, 837 yds, 3 tds
2004 - 93 rec, 1405 yds, 16 tds (Smith injured)
2005 - 64 rec, 750 yds, 4 tds (Chicago)
2006 - 60 rec, 863 yds, 5 tds (Chicago)

And as mentioned, Keyshawn's numbers took a hit when Weinke took over. Halfway through the season he was competing with Wayne for the best stats among #2 receivers. In any case, it is beyond obvious that what you said was utterly stupid. Keyshawn did provide us much the same thing that we had with Moose, namely very good run blocking and a productive possession receiver.

When you miserably fail at making your argument it's always fun to just repeat your initial, unsupported declarative statement, isn't it?

You claimed that they rolled safeties away from Keyshawn and that they rolled them up to his side on the "majority of their plays." That's obviously impossible, just as it's obvious that you were talking completely out of your ass. Let me give you a clue what someone with actual knowledge might come up with in terms of believable bullshit:

"Keyshawn's skill set required more investment in intermediate throws, a depth at which Jake has more trouble and which contributed to his struggles last season. Compounding the problem, Johnson's short range ended up squeezing Smith's quick routes that he likes to run which allow him to catch the ball and turn up field rather than being forced to beat the coverage deep. Moreover, KJ's deliberate route running never could quite synch up with Delhomme's timing, as he is more used to rounded patterns that get in and out more quickly. Because of the these things, it was in the best interests of the team to see about making a change, even to someone inexperienced or lacking the full breadth of Keyshawn's talents."

Now that's bullshit too, but it sounds good, doesn't it? That's because I know what I'm talking about, so I can craft a believable lie rather than one that depends on teleporting safeties.

So again, how many safeties are we talking about? You said that the safeties rolled away from KJ, presumably to Smith. Then you said there were safeties rolled up to Keyshawn's side to play the run. The fact of the matter is that you didn't see any of this on TV or otherwise. Aside from the second Atlanta game, hardly anyone played us with eight in the box because they didn't need to. And while teams did shade coverage to Smith's side, they didn't double him often or prevent him from catching the ball. What they did was to extend the coverage umbrella to try and prevent him from breaking big gains.

Actually you did, dumbass. You said, "if that keeps us Jenks, it is worth loosing Key." The two had nothing whatsoever to do with one another, and anyone who wasn't a complete idiot knew that. In fact, it is such a remarkably stupid thing to say that even you should have known better. Think about it. It's absolutely retarded. But for the record, we wouldn't have been squeezed next season either. Keyshawn wasn't even in our top 5 in terms of individual salaries. Cutting him was absolutely not a salary cap move, and for you to pretend otherwise only highlights your ignorance.

It's always amusing when people like you pretend that I'm just "some guy." The truth is that you're jealous of my knowledge, that you envy the fact that people listen to me, and that me demonstrating that insight makes you feel inadequate. Again, if you're going to lie then at least say something believable. You pretending that I'm "some guy" actually screams to everyone how bitter you are.

Only Kellen Winslow had more catches than Keyshawn, and that's because the Browns have no competent receiving options aside from Edwards. Only Winslow, Gonzalez, and Gates had more receiving yards than Keyshawn. The vast majority of tight ends, even receiving tight ends, catch 50 or fewer balls and have fewer than 650 yards. They're just not used at the same frequency, and kudos for completely ignoring my point about the differences between how possession receivers and receiving TEs operate. They usually run completely different routes and they usually do so in completely different parts of the coverage. You compared Keyshawn to a pass catching TE precisely because you're ignorant, and also because you were trying to be funny.

He was brought in to be a quality possession receiver and downfield blocker, and he did quite well in both roles. I can understand the idea that his mouth and antics made the front office uneasy, but letting that create a fairly large offensive problem that wasn't there before seems like lunacy.

And getting back to the two of us, you're not remotely equipped to argue with me. When you say some nonsense and get called on it, your best response is to laugh it off and chalk it up to a late night, a momentary brainfart, or too many generations of inter-breeding. Trying to defend your idiocy only compounds your mistake and causes you to look that much worse. So like the Panthers, cut bait and move on.

 

FUCKING BULLSHIT!

 

I think Moose is a better WR and can be a #1 if necessary, but I don't think he is that much better than Key. It's hard to deny that Key can go anywhere and be a very good WR. Moose is not as good in Chicago as he was here for whatever reason.

It's almost a toss up. I think Key is closer to the hall of fame, but I don't think either have a real chance of making it.

 

Like Mark Duper and Mark Clayton?

 

Same place you did... only didn't include Chicago in my argument for how good Moose was here.

Since it can be difficult to compare a 16 game season to a 14, a 15 and a 16 game season for Moose (admittedly one of Key's strong points is staying healthy) I extrapolated the per year averages assuming a 16 game season.

Considering Key was playing without the greatest running game last year, and Moose was Playing with Peete behind center in one of those years and without Smith across from him another, I think we can agree that the comparison holds little water statistically (which is why I put so little stock in stats). Which is what I was trying to say.

See, I didn't think I was working for the Observer needing to get my fact checkers on every little thing. Thought that a message board was the place to state opinion and conjecture. I kind of figured that saying something like what Moose was for us, was better than what Key was for us would be mostly agreed on by people who have watched Panthers games for the last few years... my bad.

What they did to cover Johnson, far as I could tell, was single cover him with a corner playing off on run downs and walk the safety on his side closer in to help support, and play the safety in a center field roll covering deep on passing downs. On Smith's side they moved a safety covering the deep route over top of him and walked a corner up tight on him to cover the underneath. Steve ended up running a lot of crossing patterns to loose the double in the trash underneath. The hope, as it was sold in every form of media for the entire preseason, was that Johnson's existence would keep them from being able to cheat over to Smith's side, but due to Johnson's lack of speed he couldn't challenge a Safety deep or often even separate from the corner covering him. He also ended up running mainly short routes as a result and the 2 never complemented each other’s style. Moose could attack a D short and long, as a result he took more heat off of Steve (not to mention made the play action we ran as our bread and butter works better when a biting safety runs the risk of getting beaten deep)

There is this thing called a Salary Cap. The league doesn't care if you spend your money on D-Linemen or Wide Receivers. As a result, what one player makes in fact does affect another player.

At the time this discussion began, no one knew why he was cut (I'm still not sure we know the whole truth, or ever will) Speculation was all that was going on. Combining Jenkins' meeting with Fox and Johnson's release seems/seemed as reasonable as anything else. It was a thought, not a claim of fact or an undercut for anything you may or may not have been thinking.

I don't mean to hurt your feelings, but you ARE just some guy. Angry people who go directly to personal attacks with little provocation are not really my heroes. People may listen to you, but for the most part I skip your shit and see if Mags, and WP28 have anything to say. You just aren't one of the voices whose opinion matters to me. I don't pretend to be an expert on the subject matter. I used to know a lot more about what was going on, but then I got a job, a wife, and a couple of kids to eat up my free time instead. What I think and what I see aren't lies. I have no dog in this fight. I don't think Key is special, big whoop. If for some reason you think my disagreeing with you might lower someone’s opinion of how knowledgeable you are then I'm sorry. I might have missed the majority of insight you have been gracing me with even in our discussion here. I kind of keep hearing you tell me I'm wrong and how great Key was/is, sounds like opinion too me.

Right, you said not even good TEs put up numbers like Key, and you were speaking out of your ass. You talk about short, intermediate and crossing routes and blocking being what Key brings to the team, and then denying that this is what a good TE does. I compared Key to a pass catching TE because it is accurate. It is also not an insult, just not what we need at WR.

Here is the crux of our disagreement. I think we are worse for the move, and so do you. On a scale of 1-10 I kind of think Key was a 7 and the guys we have are in the 5-6 range. You seem to think Key was a 9. As a result, it simply matters less to me that he won't be here next year.

Excuse me if I get the feeling that you have singled me out as a result of our discussions on draft day. You went out of your way to tell me how smart you are then too. For years I have been posting here and couldn’t pay anyone to respond to anything I have said. We chat for a few hours, and now you are out to make an example of me for the masses? We don’t agree… So what, it has happened before, and will again.