Is there =really= a place in heaven for serial killers, rapists, etc?

I was responding to Sly, not you.

You just feel the need to interject your inane babble into every decent discussion, and inflate your sense of self importance and self righteousness.

 

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Thelt isn't the only champion of that premise. Not by a long shot. That's a huge part of the platform of the Religious Right. I feel it's significant enough to be a valid topic in discussions about contemporary American culture conflict and politics.

 

What is your take on the "turned them over to a reprobate mind" verse, HB?

 

I'm sorry I used your name as an example. This really has nothing to do with you though. It was a genuine discussion I wanted to have with HB.

HB, I'm stuck at the fulfillment/price has to be paid roadblock. Are you saying that even if someone is repentent and God forgives them, he still demands "payment"/justice? The bill is still due? (JC crucifiction, part II?) Sorry if that's the wrong interpretation, but I havent been able to think of it any other way yet.

That's kind of staggering, IMHO.

 

I take it you're referring to Romans 1:28 (KJV). The people targeted in that verse are described in the previous verses as those who have been told about the saving grace of Christ and have rejected it outright, choosing instead to pursue paganism and their own desires and carnal appetites.

That still applies to anyone who has heard the gospel, rejected it outright, and has chosen to live life by his own terms with no desire whatsoever to consider anything else. As long as a person has that particular mindset, there is no chance of salvation, because God will not force Himself on someone who refuses to acknowledge Him. That principle is echoed in Hebrews 10:26, which says that for those people, "no sacrifice ...is left", only terrible judgment.

Applying that to our discussion of repeat offenders, I would say it's true if their mindset fits the description of Romans 1. For anyone who has decided to continually reject the Gospel, you could say God "gives up on them", because there is no room given for Him to do anything else until the time for His judgment comes.

So in those cases, you are correct. But the catch is, we as human beings cannot know if another person is truly 'there' or not, regardless of what their actions indicate. And in the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19-20), Jesus left no room for discernment. He simply said to His followers to go recruit people all over the world to be His followers, and teach them what He had taught them. There were no loopholes of "unless you don't think they're worthy, or you think they're too far gone, or you think God has given up on them." It is for God and God alone to decide who can be saved and who can't or won't.

 

I agree completely that we can not decide who is too far gone and who is not. Only God decides that. My only point is that I think those we have been talking about such as serial killers, are likely in that group that have "gone too far". Obviously I can not say definitively whether or not they are but I think it is likely. Someone who has crossed that line can not just get scared on a death bed and receive salvation.

 

Think of it as a criminal justice system. The goals of our legal system are (more or less) to protect society from crime, to capture those who are a threat to society and to give them a deterrent from committing any more offenses through punishment, and finally to rehabilitate criminals to make them productive members of society.

In the Kingdom of heaven, God's ultimate goal is to maintain the holy and perfect status of His Kingdom, with all of mankind as a part of it. To give mankind an idea of what Kingdom life is like, He gave us commandments (a.k.a. The Law). When those commandments are broken, a penalty must be paid to satisfy God's justice and also to function as a deterrent for repeat offenses by the offender or any potential offenders.

But like the convicted criminal in our society, unless the offender changes his ways, he will resume being a threat to peaceful and prosperous society as soon as his debt to that society is paid. In almost every case, the Mosaic law of the Old Testament demands some kind of blood sacrifice as payment for sin. Regardless of what animal is involved, or what part of the animal is demanded, there is blood involved to varying degrees. But as Israel demonstrated so well over several centuries, unless there is a change of heart in the sinner, the cycle continues and the relationship with God is never restored. Here is where repentance comes into play.

Repentance has everything to do with restoring man's relationship to God. Paying the penalty for sin makes that restoration possible, but does not make it happen. Just like in our current justice system, a convict can tell a jury he's sorry and will never do that again, but he still must pay some price before he's released to become a free member of society.

The sacrifice of Christ paid the collective sin debt of all mankind. But because a restored relationship is what God is ultimately after, we still have to make a choice out of our own free will -- not only to pursue a relationship with Him and submit to His authority, but also to have the sacrifice of Christ pay our own sin debt. He gives man the option to pay that debt on our own, or allow Jesus to have paid it for us. That, in a nutshell, is the basis of the New Testament, or new contract between God and man.

That's probably oversimplified to a degree, but I hope that fills in a blank or two. If not, let me know and I'll take another crack at it.

 

It all depends on what's in a person's heart at that time, and that's something only God knows. The Bible speaks of an instance when a man was in the middle of being executed, only hours from death. He reached out to Jesus for salvation and got it. I'll grant you that man's heart is probably the exception rather than the rule, but it's not impossible. If it happened once, it can happen again.

 

all good, and it had its own merits, so that why I kinda groaned when names were named NOTD-style. That's all I was getting at.