Is there =really= a place in heaven for serial killers, rapists, etc?

Some will take that risk. But here's the catch -- what if you don't get a chance "at the end of your run"? If the person you're using as an example gets blindsided by a Mack truck, is he going to try on his judgment day to tell Jesus, "Hey, Jesus, I meant to do that repentance thing when I was at the end of my run, but I didn't have the chance because B.J. and the Bear ran over me. So could you cut me a break here?" That ain't gonna work.

Or, what if the person has a stroke before he's ready to take a knee before God and spends "the end of his run" half a step above a vegetable? Same risk.

 

I somehow skipped your post last visit here. Kickass post man. Thanks. [I highlighted my favorite part]

 

I dont think there's any doubt that Joe Serial Killer isnt a Christian when he's having these thoughts, but there always looms the specter that he can come clean later. Maybe the entire debate & internal compromise is held on a subconcious level, maybe he's not the brightest bulb in the world and doesnt completely understand the concept and couldnt articulate it, but the notion is understood.

I guess I'm just pointing out the incongruity in the faith as the basis for morality argument. FWIW, I do believe the golden rule is the ultimate, non-faith specific moral compass, which is blasphemous because many would say that it suggests that humanism > [insert religious faith here] as a moral guide. I'm not saying that I exclude faith based morality as a major motivational force, and in some cases and additional overlapping layer. But I've always wondered about the inherent "spirituality" of the laws of physics - for every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction (do harm and it'll come back at ya). If you believe that these physical laws are = the design of the creator, then the reverence of at least some type of faith is there and the loophole is somewhat reconciled. But not the Christian one... Does that even make sense?

 

Yeah, not everyone would feel bad - in my argument it's not necessary for it to actually happen for the loophole to exist... capeche?

 

I am not sure I understand your point. The fact that God is willing to forgive someone for being immoral does not validate the immoral behavior. If God forgives someone for being a serial killer it does not mean God believes it is ok to be a serial killer.

Following my logic that all morality springs from religion still holds true to some degree with your question though. Our collective morality tends to forgive those who seem genuinely sorry for what they did but tends to disdain those who do not.

 

But here's where the problem lies. Someone who says "I'm having too much fun now -- I'll be a Christian later," isn't a Christian, so he's really not part of the Christian equation. A life lived following the examples of Jesus would be considered by most a moral life. If a person isn't living that life, regardless of reason or intent, he can't be included in the evaluation process.

 

Something that's being missed. For God to forgive you of your sins you must be truly repentant of them. Repenting isn't something as simple as thinking "Now I can say sorry and ask for forgiveness."

In your heart you should truly be sorry for your actions. If you are simply quoting lines in order to "wash away your sins" at the last minute, there is no meaning to it. In that fact you aren't TRULY repentant. SO... in cases like these you wouldn't receive God's forgiveness and admission in to heaven.

 

Sort of. I can see two problems with your argument, though. One, I don't think it's universally applicable to equate what some would call karma to the laws of physics. The material world and the 'immaterial' world coincide and intermingle, but aren't necessarily bound by the same laws, IMO.

The other problem is that you're not taking into account that the crucifixion of Christ was necessary to make salvation even possible. God's justice wasn't waived, it was fulfilled. It's like Harvey Keitel's great line at the end of National Treasure, "Somebody's gotta go to jail, Ben." In our case, there was a penalty on our souls that had to be paid for the sin we've committed. But that penalty was paid by Jesus so we wouldn't have to. And in God's economy, His sacrifice was sufficient to pay that price. In fact, the last recorded words from Christ's mouth before He died were, literally, "It is paid."

 

I think you can reach a point to where you can no longer get salvation. I think God has to convict your heart and draw you to him. You can only resist that and say no to it for so long before God will stop. Man has a sin nature and will not feel true remorse for his sins apart from God's conviction. I think a lot of people who do horrible misdeeds such as the serial killer example have already gone past this point and will not ever obtain salvation. As Brain says there can be no salvation without true remorse.

 

The "loophole" only exists as far as God's judgment allows. Only God knows whether or not a 'deathbed conversion' is sincere or not, and I'm okay with that. It's His call to make. I don't know if I should say this or not, but I was praying fervently the last few weeks of my mother's life that she would be converted on hers. And because she was incapable of communicating, I won't know if she was saved until after I enter the gates of heaven myself.

But those types of conversions are still an option. For an example, the second thief who was crucified next to Jesus was promised salvation even as they both were dying.