Is there =really= a place in heaven for serial killers, rapists, etc?

Just was thinking about the paradoxical logic of Christian Forgiveness again...

If religion is the basis of morality, but you can play your get out of eternal damnation card anytime you like, as long as its sincere (hey, a lot of serial killers claim they are completely remorseful, but incapable of stopping), then isnt that a huge loophole or paradox in the supposed deterrent factor of religious based morality?

 

The purpose of religion is not to deter sin so I don't get your point.

 

none of us are the Christian God, so it's hard to say what would actually happen there. Forgiveness isn't strictly a "get away with sin free" card, and the reason to seek grace shouldn't be for that purpose.

 

*chimes in*

This is not the Judeo-Christian perspective on this subject.

The kind of person (most often, man) you seem to be talking about is generally lacking in what we call conscience. Seemingly from an early age this personality type seems to magnetize strife, cruelty, betrayal and misery towards themselves, and return it to the rest of the world. This trend only perpetuates itself over the years, and these types invariably end up in prison or dead. Those who don't, regardless of apparent success or affluence, live in denial and torment, full of almost as much hatred for others as they have for themselves.

From the European heathen perspective, there are a number of various myths that speak of what awaits this type of predator beyond this life. Whether in some form of afterworld or in a subsequent rebirth, the forces of how they have lived before set the course for their "final" destination. Suffice it to say that dishonor and a lack of human dignity come with their own just rewards, in both a spiritual and mundane sense.

From the Satanic perspective, the indiscriminate predator is seen as a latent masochist who is crying out for his own destruction. Satanism recognizes Man as a beast like any other, and when certain beasts are rabid, the world is done a favor when the beast is put down. The same could be said for lesser versions of this menace, such as human leeches or psychic vampires. Satanism generally dismisses notions of an afterlife, but still maintains that the real "assholes" of the world do eventually get what's coming to them. Swift justice and "responsibility to the responsible" are the Satanic ideals in this regard.

As for me, I say that contrived "deathbed conversions" are garbage - especially from the hardened criminals you speak of; that the only real sign of redemption or the true changing of colors is measured in actual deeds and behavior over an extended period of time. There is such a thing as a person realizing the folly of bad behavior and trying to make amends. But talk is cheap. A man who abandons his previous lack of honor and overcomes his old self is the genuine article and should be recognized as such. Frequent "backsliders" and fair-weather prodigal sons are the dregs of the earth.

*chimes out*

 

Not really, if we're talking about the Christian realm. The spiritual forgiveness of God is only possible because Jesus satisfied God's law and justice by taking the death penalty (both spiritual and physical) for all mankind. The purpose of that self sacrifice was to make it possible for the relationship between God and humanity to be restored, if mankind is willing. Through that relationship, people's hearts and minds are changed to take on the character, kindness, and overall loving nature of Christ.

That being said, the reality is that this transformation takes time -- not just years, but a lifetime. Paul wrote toward the end of his life that basically you never really "get there" in this life, but that's not to say the Christian shouldn't try of course. And until it is fulfilled, there will be an ongoing struggle against the "old self", that made bad decisions and hurt others as well as itself, whether for selfish, moral, or even physiological reasons (i.e. mental illness, chemical imbalances, etc.).

The other rub is that God's forgiveness is eternal and timeless, but the world we live in is not. And even though a man's soul has been saved by the grace of Jesus, his debt to society is not absolved, nor is it any guarantee that he won't commit the same crime (or any other, for that matter). Salvation doesn't remove free will, nor does it heal all ills.

So in the case of the criminally insane, society still has a responsibility to protect itself from those who cannot control themselves, regardless of their spiritual status.

 

TheIt pounds the religion=basis for morality argument in NOTD anytime he can, along with the "without religion, no morality" underscore.

So, either it is, or it isnt the basis for morality.

 

I understand the secular considerations hasbeen, but I was kind of hoping for a discussion of how, for a lack of a better way of putting this, Christianity prevents(?) someone from saying - I'll just rape and steal and maybe even kill to get what I want in this world, and if I feel bad enough about it at the end of my run, I'll [genuinely] ask forgiveness. The premeditation loophole, you might loosely call it...

 

IF they feel bad about it?....hmmm

And one never knows when the end of the run might be does one?

 

Religion (not faith) is something largely created by man, which equates it to little more than another philosophy or idea with spiritual window dressing. I think the reality is that religion has been used as a basis for morality (and in all honesty, most of the time it works pretty well), but there have been at least functional, if not successful, societies throughout history who have become so without the influence of religion.

 

This is something I've been wrestling with for some time now, and is being discussed in the modern evangelical church. The simple answer is that a Christian even considering a premeditation loophole -- abusing the gift of salvation -- isn't really a Christian.

A Christian, otherwise defined as a modern disciple or follower of Jesus, is someone who has willingly given up all his or her old life to start a new one in submission to God. There is a transformation that takes place, which is where the phrase "born again" is rooted. For any who make that heartfelt commitment, God promises to change his heart and mind into a likeness of His own, as modeled out by Jesus. That devotion to living life God's way is the deterrent you're looking for. And, for the most part, the level of that devotion is what will be reflected in the life of that person.