hurney

Of course they would have, but it was never offered. Regardless, you're still deflecting. They knew Peppers was going to be gone either prior to the 2009 season or after it, so drafting Everrette Brown was about addressing a short-term need.

Fair enough, although good teams don't necessarily pick guys just to fill immediate needs. Out of Pittsburgh's last five first round picks, only Maurkice Pouncey started as a rookie. Meanwhile out of the Giants' last ten first rounders, only Aaron Ross and Jeremy Shockey started regularly as rookies.

Hartwig was already a pretty big disappointment, but you're still missing the point. Hurney said of that draft that taking Kalil wasn't some long-term plan, but rather seeing a guy who was too good to pass up at that point in the draft. They viewed him as a soon-to-be starter and taking him is why they cut Hartwig.

Bullshit, dude. You said something dumb when you argued with B&B's statement and claimed that there were "plenty" of examples. No one agrees with you, not even Hurney. B&B gave you his quote about how he drafts "with the flow." I can get over the fact that you are pathologically incapable of admitting mistakes when you make them, but it's beyond annoying when you get this defensive and start making bullshit excuses to justify continued argument in support of your dumb statement.

You're the one who has lost control, dude. I just want you to stop creating these pointless arguments by stubbornly sticking to discredited positions instead of just letting things go.

 

Isn't this just really a case of Hurney getting caught by the things that Hurney does poorly? Not so much that he doesn't draft for the far off future, but due to the fact that he historically overpays for starters (and injury risk players) once a rookie contract guy can give you 90% of what the starter can he almost HAS to cut the starter and go with the younger guy for monetary reasons. There is no keeping a Foster, or a Hartwig, or a Witherspoon or whomever and slowly working the kids in over a few years with good depth because as soon as it becomes fiscally possible to dump the overpaid vet they have to put the kid in.

On the other hand isn't this exactly what the fans want? There was a ton of griping over the years when Fox relied on maxed out vets instead of playing the younger upside players.

Is it a Hurney problem or a coaching problem that we so rarely see young players move from the fringe to starting in year 3 or 4?

 

It's both. You make a good point that when you badly overpay at some positions you have to go cheap at others. That's frustrating for things like DT & CB where they're taking middle or low round picks and just praying that they can play right away as opposed to drafting guys and developing to step up a couple of seasons down the road. Hurney also failed to look at the long-term picture and plan for Peppers' eventual replacement until Julius made it clear that he wanted out.

 

Honestly, I like people who go with the flow. I enjoy spontaneity, random road trips and such. That's sort of how I live my life. I just don't think it makes a great draft philosophy for an NFL franchise.

 

If he's had long term plans, they are shitty and have to change quite frequently, partly because for "long term" they are very shortsighted, leave little flexibility both financial and for needs, and in my eyes have never made a lot of sense. It's impossible to see whether there has been a plan, but it shouldn't be hard to see that the plans either didn't work or were poorly constructed in the first place.


This year for instance, taking Kuechly, despite having guys returning from injury, and last year having backups fill in suprisingly well, when there was good players in need positions all over the board. Now if he's a great player, maybe its a good pick, but when your plans have seemingly changed every year, teams don't always have the luxury of best player available, unless they are planning to suck for 1-2 years. Signing Tolbert only would make sense to me if they trade Stewart. Holding on to Stewart to me would only make sense if they were a SB team, which I don't think they are. Every year there are at least 3-5 things the Panthers do that seem counter-intuitive.

 

The main thing that bugs me about Hurney is that he seems to always leave a certain area of the team with scraps. This year for example why not add a decent mid level free agent at corner? If one of the young guys wins the starting job that is all well and good but if they falter we have nothing to fall back on. Leaving gaps like that on the roster puts stress not only on the weak position but the other positions that have to try to cover for it. Another example of this is all the years we have had Steve Smith with no viable complimentary WR. Moose had a few good years but other than that we have had little else. I guess I should give him some credit for trying with Keyshawn but why not just spend a little money and sign a solid guy who is not at the end of his career?

 

By that time, yes, it's more or less certain that Peppers was going to be there that year. Without Peppers in 2010, they would've still had two starting level guys. But, the argument was year-to-year, so yes, thank you for agreeing.

he got injured, that's about it. He had not been a disappointing starter until after Kalil was there.

Marty Hurney wasn't asked "do you have a long term philosophy for the team?" when he said he goes with the flow. He was asked wheter he plans to trade, and he said he'd he said he would go with the flow.

FWIW, it's never been a secret that he works with his coaches and scouts to find what's best for everyone. That doesn't mean there's no plan at all.

that's the thing. You state it's discredited, which just happens to support yourself, and then you say the other person's flawed. Not my first barbecue. I'm stating my position, and I'm fine with that. If you want to go off the deep end, that's your problem, but if you choose not to, then don't.

 

Why? They certainly had the option to trade him, and frankly he should have been traded for something. In any case, they obviously drafted Everette Brown hoping that he would replace Peppers. Moreover, journeyman Tyler Brayton was the other starting DE that season so DE was an immediate need even with Peppers still there. The notion that Everette Brown was a sign of a long-term plan is just silly. The opposite is true.

If you go back and look at the threads from that draft, we (including you) were all already talking about Kalil starting over Hartwig and him maybe sliding over to guard.

You keep arguing because you get defensive and flip out whenever I point out that you said something dumb. I even tried to get you to shut up when I said "I agree to disagree" on page 4, but you wouldn't let it go. You've never taken responsibility for your part in these pointless arguments, and you've never been honest about how emotional and defensive you get when I point out that you're wrong about something. Again, you chose to quibble with something B&B said in this thread, and he was correct. This is on you, dude.

 

eventually replace him, maybe. But, that year with FFA done, he was on that team. So Brown was never picked into a season where Peppers wasn't going to be traded. He would've been traded by that point or not. So again, that sounds like a plan. Thanks for your agreement.

Brayton was a good starter in 08, and again in 09. He was excellent against the run, and did well enough against the pass. He wasn't Peppers, but he wasn't trash.

Definitely hoped for that. But even then, that was with the idea Hartwig would still start, not be replaced. He wasn't awful until after Kalil was there.

I keep arguing because I believe in what I'm saying. You're the one coming up with "reasons". I feel like the guy has shown, even in your estimation saying numerous times "the next year" and the like, that plans aren't always only focusing on the one year. You can't take things at face value, though. You've gotta pretend there's some conspiracy, which then allows you to just insult me with whatever you want. And any time you want to stop talking about it, you can. It doesn't bother me. It obviously does you.

But, at least you stopped trying to twist "go with the flow" into his overarching strategy, because you know that's not what was being discussed . So, cool there.

 

Interesting that you insist on that given that you were far from certain that Peppers would be with the team back then: http://www.thisboardrocks.com/forum/f19/post-draft-holes%3B-veteran-fa-needs-160329/#post2380293 Franchised players can and do get traded after the draft. And this kind of juvenile "ha ha you agree with me" stuff is just silly. Everette Brown was clearly taken for the short-term need at DE with Peppers on the way out and Brayton as the other starter. A long-term plan would have been taking a guy and grooming him for a couple of seasons before you need him to take over, which is what the Steelers have done quite successfully for the last couple of decades.

No one but the Colts wanted him when the Panthers let him go, and he only started one game for them. I agree that he wasn't trash, but pretending he was so good that it meant there was no need at DE is silly.

No, you keep arguing because you can never ever admit to being wrong. I keep bringing up Shawne Merriman because it's such a perfect example of your absurdity. Even after he spent years playing as a 3-4 LB, you absolutely wouldn't acknowledge being wrong when you said before that draft that he was a "DE-only." You're a really smart guy with a lot of football knowledge, but you've always been crippled by two things. First, you let your emotions and bias color your perspective (defending Seifert to the death, etc). Second and more importantly, you can't back off things after being corrected. That's what produces these awful threads because you can't stop yourself from making excuses to avoid admitting you were wrong, and I can't stop holding you accountable.

See, you can't even be honest about this. You always pretend like this doesn't bother you when everyone can see you flying off the handle and getting extremely defensive. This bothers you enormously.

No one agrees with you about that. B&B is the one who brought that up as evidence that Hurney doesn't have a particular "plan," and he's absolutely correct. There was no need for you to try and correct what B&B said, but you did, and what you said was wrong. *shrug*