How can one lose their salvation?

That's up to Jesus. There are a lot of mitigating factors that we can't possibly know.

Agreed.

No, I'm saying that based on Scripture in Matthew, Romans, Hebrews, and Revelation, it's possible for a Christian to lose his salvation if he ignores Christ. Trying to get saved by works is either pride or bribery, neither of which work. I'm talking about living in obedience to Jesus as Lord and maintaining a relationship with Him. There's a difference.

How can you turn away from God, but still have Him in your life?

I agree 100%. A true Christian can murder or lie, but should not and will not. Salvation and discipleship do not eliminate free will.

 

Yes and no. He was doing that as a protective act for Christ. His intentions were good, but his actions were not in line with Jesus' will.

Whether or not he was from the time he denied Jesus to the day he repented on the shores of the Sea of Galilee after the resurrection is something we can only speculate. Jesus forgave him on that day, and henceforth Peter lived up to his Christ-given name as "the rock".

 

Fundamentally you are wrong. You can't say a murderer is not a christian or a christian is not a murderer. You continue to say that a christian should not murder which is true, then you go on to say would not murder and that is not true. Christians are human and not perfect. They can and will sin. If a christian commits murder and dies or lies and dies it is all the same in God's eyes. They will still go to heaven.

As far as me turning from God and ignoring his will. This does not mean I'm not a christian. It means I am a sinner ignoring his will. That is not the same as never being saved. Eventually fallen christians are convicted enough by their sins to repent and follow the Lord again. A fallen christian is not unsaved. You can not be saved over and over again. It happens one time and when you fall you repent. As long as you repent with a humble heart, then you will always be forgiven.

I stand behind my statement that the percentage of christians in society is the same or GREATER than the percentage of christian murderers in jail.

You can not say that someone that repents and ask the Lord into their heart and then falls from grace through sin is not saved. That is against EVERYTHING christianity teaches.

You missed the society and murder point. Murder is a cleaner sin because it is easier to repent for than compulsive lying or an addiction. Murder is a single act and can be corrected easily and is not normally repeated. The MINOR sins are repeated and often compulsive sometimes they happen on an hourly basis.

You are beginning to baffle me with your defense of the perfect christian. There is no such being other than Jesus himself. You can not claim that a christian is not capible of committing any sin. True christians fall everyday. Doesn't mean they are not or were not christians.

I guess I'm blue in the face now. Only reason I'm banging this home to you is that if you can not recognize how christian's sins can be minor or major, then you are setting yourself up for a huge let crash one day. You can not and will not go through the rest of your life without committing 100s of MINOR sins and a couple MAJOR sins. Like I said. If I'm standing beside a murderer and a liar in heaven, I'm betting that the murderet has a cleaner slate and receives more crowns than the liar.

 

Before we get any farther into this debate, let me list some of the verses that have led me to believe so strongly in discipleship, serving, and in Christians conforming their lives to the example, principles, and character of Jesus...


Matthew 5:13
"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.”



Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”



Matthew 10:38
“...Anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”



Matthew 12:49-50
“Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."



Matthew 16:24
“Then Jesus said to his disciples, ‘If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.’”



Matthew 18:3
“And he said: ‘I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.’”



Matthew 24:13
“...But he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”



Matthew 28:19-20
“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.”





Luke 12:43-47
“It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose the servant says to himself, 'My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to [do whatever he wants to do]. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows.”





John 8:31
“...Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.”



John 10:27
“My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.”



John 12:26
“Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.”



John 14:12
“I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing.”



John 14:15
“If you love me, you will obey what I command.”



John 14:21
“Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”



John 14:23-24
“Jesus replied, ‘If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching...”



John 15:1-6, 9-14
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.


"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command.”





Romans 6:1-4
“What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.”



Romans 6:15
“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!”





Hebrews 6:7-8
“Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.”





James 2:14, 18-19
“What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? ...But someone will say, ‘You have faith; I have deeds.’ Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.”





Revelation 3:1-3
“...I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.”



Revelation 3:15-16
“I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.”

 

nice work.

you still miss the point. never said that a christian should go on sinning after being saved. they do keep sinning after being saved. that's a fact.

 

I don't disagree, but the key is intent. A Christian who falls in a moment of weakness while continually striving toward a righteous life is one thing. A man who sins as much as he pleases because he believes he's saved no matter what he does is something else. At least, that's what the verses I listed tell me.

 

exactly.

a christian who falls in a moment of weakness while continually striving toward a righteous life is what I'm talking about. one that becomes enraged and kills another. it happens. christians can and do murder during a moment of weakness.

really I'm done. let's leave it alone. i disagree with you. christians commit all the same sins non-christians do, whether they are striving toward righteousness or not. it's that sinful nature that we will never be free of until we are in heaven.

 

Fair enough.

 

Can you lose your salvation?

No.
EPHESIANS 2:8-9
You are saved by grace, through faith, and even that faith is a gift
of God. You did not get it by any of the works that you have done or could do. That is so no one will boast.
ROMANS 11:29
Anything that God has given to you as a gift, and anything He has called you to do, and equipped you to do, is yours, forever. He will not change His mind, and take back what He has given you.

 

There is still free will involved. Trust is an act of free will. Receiving the gift of grace is an act of free will. God will not "force" us to spend eternity under His rule in heaven if we don't want to, even if we said we wanted to in our past.