Honesty is the best policy . . .

Absolutely! And that's the source of a great deal, if not all, of my ambivalence about truth-telling. Anybody can justify a lie in his/her own mind. And I wouldn't want to be justifying it purely out of self-interest. I ask myself, "How can I be sure I'm not just rationalizing this out of selfishness or to avoid discomfort?" Tough call. And I know a lot of people don't, & wouldn't, worry about that issue at all. To say that lying is sometimes justified would encourage a lot of people to lie without guilt, I think.

Another thing: Not only are we dealing with a world full of people who are deceitful at various levels. We're also dealing with their attitudes, their prejudices, their levels of reasonableness & fairness. We must "guesstimate" those things in our dealings with them; & of course our perceptions can be way off base.

Even when a lie (or simply not disclosing a truth) is motivated by a desire to protect someone, we can be woefully wrong about the effect the truth might have on that person, & on ourselves.

Another example: Suppose you know for a fact that a friend's spouse is cheating on them. Do you tell? If you keep your mouth shut, you're carrying around the knowledge that your friend is being deceived in a major way by someone they should be able to trust--which is one form of hurting them. If you tell, not only are you giving your friend painful news, but they may resent your interference, or might not be able to handle the truth, or may just not be ready to know the truth. Then again, if your friend discovers the truth after you've concealed it, they may be furious with you for NOT telling them. A real conundrum. So your own feelings are an inextricable part of your decision as well. I know I would want to be told, no matter how painful the truth is to me. But a lot of people really would resent being forced to face the truth.

Then too, there's the matter of whether a painful truth would be something someone needs, even if that person doesn't want it. What would be best for that person? We can't know for sure. And do we have the right to decide that at all?

I know these are pretty much unanswerable questions. I just think they're important to give some heavy consideration to.

 

i tend to see things in black and white. i say, either you're a liar or you're not. either you tell the truth 100% of the time or you're a liar. there is no such thing as a small lie or a nice lie or a protective lie. a lie is a lie.

hiding the truth knowingly is a lie

 

Lovely and right to the point. However, you didn't come close to answering the damn question.

She asked if telling a lie is always wrong, not if telling a lie makes you a lier. But thanks for trying.

 

I agree completely.

Also true. It doesn't always happen, but it definitely can.

If we're talking about a friend and not just an acquaintance, I would go to the cheating spouse first and confront him/her. If I got nowhere there, I would inform him/her I was going to tell the other.

You've just stumbled upon the evangelism trap. Trying to decide what's "best" for another person can be a very dicey situation. And a lot of that decision rides heavily upon how the individual defines both "right" and "best", for themselves and others.

 

I wouldn't disagree.

 

if you would have followed the thread in it's entirety and sequential order, you would have deduced i was speaking more to hb's post than the thread topic, but really just making a standalone post. i can and i did. don't make me curse in r&s and i'll do it, mister.

yes. telling a lie is always wrong. it disrespects the other person as well as the liar and anyone else affected by the lie, and that is wrong

 

I think this quote from Meatpile speaks well to this discussion:

 

Interesting conversation. I think what's really being discussed here is the broader issue of ethics, not just questions of honesty. It's very hard to be definitive about one's ethical obligations in certain situations. For one thing, there's the whole concept of the "whole truth". If your mother-in-law's rhubarb pie is the worst you've ever tasted, are you obligated to speak the whole truth and tell her so? I'd say no. Should you lie and say it's really good? Again, I'd say no. "Tact", imho, is the ethical obligation here--remaining honest while avoiding the "whole truth" when it would only do harm.

Just to add grist for the mill, and shifting the focus onto more serious ground, here are three scenarios I could face in my work as a real estate agent:

Scenario 1. I represent the seller of a rental property where tenants set up a meth lab and contaminated the house. The owner has done his best to clean everything up, but the house has not been declared safe, and the owner wants me not to tell potential buyers about this negative history.

Code of Ethics says: This is a "material fact" that must be disclosed. I have a greater obligation to the buying public than to my client's wishes in this case. My ethical obligation to my clients' best interests means I tell him he must disclose the house's history or risk civil or criminal penalties.

Scenario 2. I represent the seller of a property where a person committed suicide. All evidence of the event has been removed, and the house is certified as habitable. The owner wants me not to disclose this event because it may turn off some potential buyers.

Code of Ethics says: My client is not required to disclose this, as it is not "material". My ethical obligation to my client's best interest means I do not disclose this without my client's permission unless asked. If asked, I may not lie, and must disclose the fact of the suicide. Still, I would recommend to my client that he allow me to volunteer this fact, as it is bound to come to light sooner or later. But if he says no, I must follow his instructions. Am I ethically compromised?

Scenario 3. I represent the seller of house where someone died of AIDS. The house has been cleared, is certified habitable, and the seller wishes not to disclose the AIDS situation as it will likely turn off potential buyers.

Code of Ethics says: By law, I may not disclose this fact even if asked. Nondiscrimination concerns take precedence in the law over disclosure in this case. I may not prevent a potential buyer from investigating the situation for him or herself, but if asked my answer must be, "By law, I am required not to answer that question." Is the law requiring me to lie?

I guess my point is that ethical obligations can extend in several different directions. And an ethical obligation to one party's interests may outweigh any obligation to tell another party the whole truth. And in certain extreme cases (eg. hiding Jews from the Nazis, etc.) I'd argue outright lies to one party may be necessary to fulfill one's ethical or moral obligations to another.

 

I sort of agree with you, & sort of don't I don't believe anyone never lies, so we're all liars to some degree. And I agree that a lie is a lie, whether it's a bald-faced lie or a withholding of the whole truth. I do see it in degrees, though. I do believe some lies are worse than others.

I also agree that lying is wrong. What I'm questioning myself on, I think, is whether there are situations in which I am more willing to accept the guilt of dishonesty than live with whatever consequences might arise if I'm completely honest.

FA, I think you make some excellent points. And I agree that what we're really talking about here is ethics. I guess in any given situation we have to ask ourselves what is the best, "rightest" thing we can do under those circumstances, & accept the consequences of our actions.

BTW, the short story I wrote about this issue was based on my experience in the Navy in the 70s. My roommate was a lesbian who visited her lover in another city periodically. She was very discreet, as she had to be. The idea behind the story was, "What if someone snitched on her, & I'd been called in to answer questions about what I knew?" The big conflict of the story is within the main character herself, who is so driven to be honest that she returns an extra nickel's worth of change to the guy who fills the Coke machine. Will she tell everything she knows? Only answer direct questions? Or deliberately mislead or lie to her questioners to protect her friend?

 

What if your little 4-year old neice, who is cute as cat's ass and who you love dearly, gave you an ash tray made out of Sly's dung as a Lesbian Day present. Obviously, it is a hideous gift. Do you tell her that was the worst gift in history, or tell her you love it?