For argument's sake - Let's assume the Bible's stories

...are just that, stories. Parables. Mother Goose for grown ups. And I don't mean that Jesus never existed, or that any other person didn't, but that the acts and miracles that are described are exaggerated to make a point.

Before you get angry, I have a legitimate question: Why does the Bible have to be supernatural? Is there an underlying reason?

For instance, one could argue that the morals that the Bible preaches are good ones (well most anyway, some of the old testement stuff is... well) and are self proving.

Anyone feel like seriously discussing this?

 

Okay, I'll play along. For argument's sake, we'll say that there is absolutely no legitimacy to the Bible's claims of the supernatural. Do that, and you can eliminate at least 2/3 of it, due to the loss of accountability and authority.

In the Old Testament, the 10 commandments become the 9 suggestions. Proverbs is still applicable, and a smattering of personal integrity stories are still useful, but that's about it. The prophets are useless, as is much of the law and the pentateuch.

In the New Testament, Jesus becomes comparable to Confucius I suppose, painting a picture of an incredibly high moral standard, but little if anything else. Most of what He taught makes little sense in the secular world.

Without the supernatural aspect of the Bible, it loses its authority. It becomes just another book of fairy tales and moral suggestions, with no real life changing power to speak of. It also loses its ability to give hope, as all its promises are tied up and founded upon God Himself.

 

The crux of every non-believer's creed.

 

I think what i'm driving at is Jesus's divinity.

I'm still not personally convinced that Jesus had to be supernatural for the Bible to have a high degree of relevance & weight. Yes, believing otherwise ignores a core belief of Christians that Jesus=God, but I have a difficult time with that equation on many levels. One of the ones that I'd love to discuss is the importance of the patriarchy to the Church.

 

If Jesus wasn't ressurected then Christianity falls flat on its face. I guess at that point you could still believe in God but you better start making your animal sacrifices right away. If you don't even believe in God, IMO, morality becomes useless. Get what you can get in any way you can.

 

I disagree.

The Bible teaches that there are consequences to our actions and a natural order to things.

I'm not tyring to be argumentative either. I don't think, from a logical basis, that the Ressurrection is necessary to establish that.

I think one of the underspoken laws of our universe is that there are consequences to our actions. A divine order to things if you will. In contract to what you are saying about "falling flat on its face" and "get what you can" - I think that there is strong evidence that if you act that way, it will come back to haunt you.

Maybe that's a bit too Taoist for the hardline Christian folks. Sorry. Didn't mean to offend.

I also struggle with what I perceive was the Church's vested interest in the establishment of a patriarchal society through the deification of J.C.

Again, it's just an idea I'm exploring. Not intending to offend.

 

Christ was viewed as a deity very very early after his death. Before the establishment of the "church". Centuries before the council of Nicea

 

I've seen material to the contrary, but I haven't read enough to form a strong opinion. I'm also not speaking solely of Jesus's ascenscion (which must have existed immediately), but instead of Jesus=God. Does he sit at the right hand of the Father or IS he the Father?

When was the first reference to the holy trinity? When did it become commonplace? Did the concept continue from its origination to today, unchanged, or were their mutations?

 

There are over 5000 ancient copies of the gospels from as early as 60 years after the death of Christ that all correlate with each other on all of the major pillars of the Christian faith. Any mutations would have occurred in just 60 years when the events were still fresh in peoples minds and eye witnesses still lived.

 

well, there is judaism...