fate of the faithless

I wasn't referring to paganism & Christianity. I agree with you that there are actually MANY similarities between them--as you say, in their purest forms.

What I meant was the conflict between the idea that "if this is true, all that must be false;" & the idea that there is some degree of truth in many things that SEEM opposed on the surface.

We see that a lot in proverbs (not in the strictly biblical definition), for instance. Example: "Knowledge is power" vs. "What you don't know can't hurt you." BOTH are true! And "Appearances are deceiving" vs. "Where there's smoke, there's fire." Both of those are also true. Only the context differs. None of these is completely true all of the time.

As far as religions go, I see parts of truth in many of them, & no complete truth in any of them. The most basic difference seems to be between "Eastern" & "Western" philosophies. At this late hour, after a rough day, the best I can come up with to contrast the two is that Western ideologies seem to focus on "taking in," absorbing spirit & being transformed by it; & Eastern ones seem to focus more on "emptying" oneself & becoming part of a larger whole. Yet this is more similar than it seems on the surface. The entirety of the process is ultimately the same. It's the outward focus of the person that differs.

I'll save the other ideas you've addressed for the next couple of days--when I'm not so pooped & brainless

 

I don't know that I fully agree. The examples you gave mostly fit the hypothesis (though both have qualifiers), but I believe there is some sage wisdom that is bulletproof.

Your point, however, is noted. And yes, it is important to dig past the surface and see what's really there when it comes to any kind of philosophy or doctrine while engaged in a pursuit of truth.

I agree none has the 'complete' picture, because for the most part, religions are trying to describe something that is beyond the ability of the human mind to fully comprehend. Pretty much anyone's concept of God is so far beyond the natural realm, that we'll never fully be able to fill in all the blanks.

 

Who is this Jesus feller anyway?

 

I believe He's God.

 

To finally get back to some of the ideas I was too tired to address before :

This makes perfect sense to me. Truth just IS. The laws of gravity, magnetism, genetics, etc--incomplete, of course, but unchangeable nonetheless. Our understanding may change, but not the truth.

I think the same is true of spiritual matters--there is truth that doesn't change. But our understanding, if we are open to learning, does change. Perhaps that is why I feel so sure that many paths can lead to the same conclusion. We learn things along the way, & eventually some paths will merge with others.

I suppose this is where we differ the most. We both have sought "truth," we both are open-minded people, & we both have studied whatever evidence we could find. But we have each found answers we can accept in different sources.
Biblical Christianity (as opposed to Church's or individual's teachings about the Bible) didn't answer questions that, to me, were vital. In order to accept certain things on faith, other things needed to make sense to me.
For example, the concept of hell as eternal torment for all sinners who do not accept Jesus as their savior.
If there is to be both mercy & justice, I can't reconcile these ideas with the biblical hell. Where is the justice in eternal torment for any & all transgressions? Even if the sacrifice of Christ pays the debt for all who accept that gift, ETERNAL torment strikes me as "cruel & unusual punishment," & certainly punishment that doesn't fit the crime--especially when the crimes are of varying gravity.
And while mercy is certainly extended to believers, why should it be so limited? I can believe that the death penalty is more merciful than a life in prison or as an evil & unrepentant person. So I could also accept the death of the soul--its ceasing to exist in any sort of afterlife--as a merciful end, which also serves the purpose of banishing those characteristics considered unacceptable. But eternal torment? What possible purpose can that serve? If those who cared for those people were aware of their agony, I can't imagine it not causing them pain also. If they aren't aware of it,or if no one cared for them, I can't see any purpose to it. It seems to me an act of hatred & vengeance; & the evidence of hate & vengeance I see in this life shows me that they eat away & at the person who indulges them, leaving him bitter--& therefore unable to be happy or fulfilled.
Regarding your other statement about hell being for those that choose not to live under the rule of the king--it makes sense to me that if the king & kingdom are as perfect as they are supposed to be, then anyone who really understands that would choose that. My own position as a pagan would be, "if my understanding is flawed, please show me how it is flawed;" . . . & I would certainly choose to live in that perfect kingdom.

I don't have any problem seeing "bad fruit" in people who claim to follow Christ, or any other spiritual path

But I also see plenty of "good fruit" in many followers of differing paths.

 

Some paths, yes, but not all. And the direction many will merge toward is not a good one, when viewed in "big picture" context.

 

So do I. There is good in just about all philosophies and religions, as many share ideas and doctrines. Few, if any, are completely malevolent. Even Laveyan Satanism has a few attractive qualities, as does humanistic atheism.

At the same time, there are aspects in every philosophy or religion I've ever studied that are less palatable. Harder. More difficult to accept, and harder still to follow.

 

I think one qualifier comes in how we each subjectively define the phrase "perfect kingdom". And as there are only two figures in the Bible I can think of (Jesus and John) who claim to have actually seen heaven, at some point we have to take their word for it and decide whether that's somewhere we want to spend eternity.

But I think it's a huge mistake for non-Christians to try to paint a picture of heaven, and especially of God, based solely on the words and actions of those who claim to be His. I've too often heard people reply, "If heaven is going to be filled with those people, I don't want any part of it!" and for good reason. Indeed, if heaven was defined by people like Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps, I wouldn't want to go there either!

But that's where truth comes back into the discussion. If the Bible is the truth, then the right thing to do is look first at what it says about heaven -- what picture it paints of the character and will of God -- and then we can make an educated decision whether or not we want to pledge our allegiance to the King.

In other words, the "flaw" (to use your word) in your understanding may be in the picture you currently have in your mind about who the God of the Bible really is, and what He's really like. I've said in the past, "to know Him is to love Him", and I didn't truly start to know Him or understand Him until I read the Bible. Not bits and pieces here and there, but the whole thing -- cover to cover. Only then did I have the complete picture and could see the true motives and purposes behind the things that happened, and the commandments He gave. I asked questions, I studies, I meditated. I went at my own pace and really tried to understand, not just to check off a box to say I'd done it.

There are several things I saw that were difficult. Things I didn't like. Things I didn't want to be true. But at least now I understand the motives, if not all the reasons for things like the conquest of Caanan, hell, the Mosaic laws, and the plagues of Egypt, and I can live with that. And the more I continue to learn and grow and understand, the easier it gets to live with those tragedies and horrors (let's call them what they are).

The hard part about progressing life on earth to an eternity in heaven in our minds is that 1) a lot of people don't really know what God's ideal for us really is (as referenced by Christ in John 10:10), and 2) our world has become so terribly corrupted compared to that ideal He set out to create, we've actually become desensitized to sin. We've lost sight of how sin not only affects us, but how it affects Him.

In the kingdom of heaven, the betrayal, the pain, and the grief of sin does not exist. There is only love.

 

Eric what about 2 Thessalonians 2:11? "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion". That's right, GOD! not the Devil, is sending delusion so that they might believe a lie and be damned.

could you help me understand this better. I know this happens when you sin the unpardonable sin. i know their is a decieving power of this sin and a deadening power of this sin. and you don't feel the work of the holy spirit of God speaking to you. and there is a deadline that you can cross and will not be able to repent of this sin and God will send you delusions and something will die inside of you. Your heart gets hardened. Every time you say no to Jesus your heart gets harder and harder and it gets harder to say yes to Jesus.

Where am i going with all this? this is in response to your conversation with articulate kitten in this thread. no, i'm not saying that ak has committed the unpardonable sin and she's gone past the deadline, it's obvious she hasn't for she prays that God will open her eyes, it's obvious there is some light in her. But if she is earnestly in prayer asking God to open her eyes, why is this not happening?

 

Those who've never heard the Gospel.

Theyre not out-and-out sinners. They're not self-righteous. They're not procrastinators, They're not lost Church members. They do not know. They have never heard the saving message of Jesus Christ. And while they do not have enough light to save them, they do have enough sin to condemn them. They are sinners and they will be judged.

Well, is that fair for God to let somebody die and go to hell who never heard the gospel? Aren't they saved if they haven't heard? I think it's a bigger question are you saved if you don't want to tell them?

The Bible teaches that these without Jesus Christ are going to be judged But they're not going to be judged the same way you're going to be judged.

Luke 12 "and that servant, which knew his master's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For whomsoever much is given, of him shall much required.