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cracking the da vinci code

Discussion in 'Religion & Spirituality Forum' started by LarryD, Mar 3, 2004.

  1. hasbeen99

    hasbeen99 Fighting the stereotype

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    Probably. The only book that might be dated earlier is James.
     
  2. hasbeen99

    hasbeen99 Fighting the stereotype

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    That's what I'm saying, though. Jesus might have been even more popular if he had a wife and taught specifically about marriage and family. Wider appeal.
     
  3. slydevl

    slydevl Asshole for the People!

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    The earliest known copy
     
  4. hasbeen99

    hasbeen99 Fighting the stereotype

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    Possibly, but I doubt it. Women were almost completely uneducated in that culture, and were very much in a subordinate role to men -- especially in the church. Jesus had 11 disciples to carry on His ministry, and 12 after Paul's conversion. Sending a woman out -- even His wife -- into that culture would make almost no sense. They just didn't have any credibility or authority. The only place a woman might have a successful ministry would have been in Greece, where most of their religious leaders were female, as were a number of their gods.


    Thanks for the heads-up. :)
     
  5. mathmajors

    mathmajors Roll Wave

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    Sorry. I meant 'written before all the other books in the New Testament'. The Gospel of Mark is pretty darn close, however.
     
  6. Superfluous_Nut

    Superfluous_Nut pastor of muppets

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    which is another valid answer to the question.

    there's no doubt that christianity was modified to fit the people to whom it was presented. didn't the disciples even teach somewhat different forms as they went off to different places? you can't just create a new religion and expect everybody to accept it. you need to provide some link to their current system. if the women thing wasn't gonna go over, they coulda dropped it. didn't they sorta skew the books to be less jewish (when deciding upon the cannon)?
     
  7. hasbeen99

    hasbeen99 Fighting the stereotype

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    Okay, lemme see if I'm understanding your point. You're citing a possibility that Jesus was married, and if so, probably did teach marriage values, but those values might have been contrary to what the early church officials wanted to retain and it was conveniently left out of the printed Gospels? If I'm accurate so far, well, I guess it's possible. I can see the possible motivation now. I still think it's unlikely, though. Just seems like an awful reach, and smacks quite a bit of conspiracy theory. Then again, stranger things have happened.


    Honestly, from what I can tell, most of the apostles didn't seem that smart. Only Paul really sucessfully adapted the Gospel message to be received by other cultures, but the central message didn't change. And even that adaptation met with bad reviews when he reported back to the others in Jerusalem. Their charge was to witness to the Jews. Paul got everyone else. Peter didn't have the intellectual stones to go head-to-head with some of the most famous Roman and Greek philosophers in history. Paul did.

    That being said, Paul did have an issue of changing the roles of women in Greece, because they were outspoken and disruptive to his teaching efforts. They were in power, and had no interest in changing to this new teaching he brought. I'd have to go back over it, but I think he may have taught other aspects of the Gospel to that culture, and not wasted his time on trying to change women. The primary goal was eternal salvation, not cultural conformity.


    This I don't know, but I'd be very surprised. The Jews, if nothing else, have clung mightily to their heritage. To lessen that heritage in order to draw Gentiles in would be counter-cultural for them, I think.
     
  8. Superfluous_Nut

    Superfluous_Nut pastor of muppets

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    i'm actually saying that if jesus was married, you're right, he probably would have mentioned it. but he might have also mentioned it when talking about women in general and their place in society. if people didn't like that part of it -- women in society -- they would have excised it along with his references to his wife (since they're interlinked). absolutely it's a conspiracy theory, but if you don't believe that jesus was divine in anyway, then it's clear stranger things HAVE happened -- like 2000 years later people believe he's the son of god.

    actually, what i'm saying is that i understand that when the bible was cannonized, the books chosen were the ones that seperated themselves from judeism the most. the ones that retained things that were too jewish were left out. if i remember what i read correctly, this was to take advantage of an already established distrust of jews.
     
  9. hasbeen99

    hasbeen99 Fighting the stereotype

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    Or that by 70 A.D. all but one of His closest followers had been tortured to death because they wouldn't say He wasn't the Son of God. :wink2:


    Well, Christianity itself separates believers from the old Mosaic law and Jewish traditions, at least to some extent. So the nature of the Gospel message itself is going to be in conflict to some of that tradition and culture. Whether or not that was a deciding factor in the canonization process, I don't know. I do know there's a dichotomy there I'm working on that I haven't quite figured out yet about how much of the old Law fits into Christian doctrine as Jesus taught it.
     
  10. mathmajors

    mathmajors Roll Wave

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    I agree that the apostle resembled the Keystone Cops in the gospels, especially Peter. But one wonders whether Paul had influence over the writings of Luke and Matthew in that respect.

    And it's hard for me to reconcile Paul 'adapting' the Gospel message to be received by other cultures when he wasn't the one who brought it in the first place. I see what you are saying, but assuming Jesus was who Christians believe, He brought the message.

    And while I'm thinking about it, it's also hard to figure out how someone like Luke knew about what happened, for example, to Jesus when he spent 40 days in the wilderness, rebuffing the temptations of Satan. He wasn't there. How does he know? Did Jesus tell someone and they told Luke? If Luke used the same source for information on Jesus, did the source forget to tell him about his wife? Or did Luke not think that was important? Or did Paul tell Luke it wasn't important?

    It can be overwhelming.
     

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