Could THIS trade happen??

>>"You were the only one that I remember questioning Beuerlein's on-field leadership. You were also the one who said Collins was this team's greatest leader at QB - yeah, the one who quit on us and the same guy whose line didn't respect him. "<<

Thats because you did not read entire threads... several people came on board and stated what was obivious, players did not rally around Bline in the 4th quarters - And for a more expert opinion, at least one with maybe a little more credibility than yourself, I would have to pull the transcripts from the HBO football show Blines last year. I can't remember which one said it, but when he did, everyone basically agreed with him... You never bought into it and thats OK, because your approval is not necessary but I heard it straight from a player that felt like Bline, was not a leader on the field... Also, it was no secret, other than Walls no one ever went out of their way other than the "textbook" comments about him... yea Moose made a few comments straight out of the "I should probably say this" book. So what do we have, two guys that depend on Steve to throw them the ball - duh what do you think they are going to say...

As far as the rest of your quotes and irrelevant rebuttles, the fact remains every year there are surprises and every year your so called experts call a few things wrong... The biggest difference here is I don't care If I am wrong - I have not positioned myself as a draft expert, I'm just a guy that loves football and once I get a chance to watch a guy play, hear him talk (attitude), etc, I can usually be a decent judge of talent or ability to succeed.

I'm just not high on Peppers or Jammer as a #2 pick. Would I like them late in the first or early second, yes. Too many high profile DBs have gone on to either be marginal or suck. As you noted by a few that talk about Peppers downside, I agree with that and it is enough, I think to not spend a #2 on him.

 

Sandman, neither Jammer nor Peppers would be there late in the first - and especially not early in the 2nd round.

I'd go as far out on a limb as to wager that both Peppers and Jammer will be gone in the first five picks of the draft.

Harrington at #2? Please God, no - don't you think we have bigger holes to fill on D, than QB? I know you're anti-Weinke, but how much $ would you put into one position?

In regard to SteveB, to me, he showed more leadership by not dressing-down his excuse for an offensive line (aka, the "sieve") during games.

Kerry Collins isn't worthy of carrying BLines jock, as far as leadership & character goes. It sounds like Kerry has turned his life and career around, but I don't think he'll be getting his statue outside the stadium anytime soon.

 

>>Thats because you did not read entire threads...

No, I did.

>>several people came on board and stated what was obivious, players did not rally around Bline in the 4th quarters -

There's a difference between him being unable to make a play and him being a bad leader.

And there's still that whole thing about "Collins being the greatest leader" you won't mention. It's okay, you don't have to admit how foolish it is to say that, or that it's driven by your Beuerlein fetish, because we know that. Yes, I'm speaking for the group, and ask for backup on this one. Go on ahead.

>>And for a more expert opinion, at least one with maybe a little more credibility than yourself, I would have to pull the transcripts from the HBO football show Blines last year.

Do it. Bring a shred of proof to something, ever.

>>because your approval is not necessary but I heard it straight from a player that felt like Bline, was not a leader on the field...

And naturally you have no backup on this one either.


>>As far as the rest of your quotes and irrelevant rebuttles,

Things like "Show me where anyone ever said Peppers wasn't a first round pick"? That's irrelevant?

No, it isn't, because you made it up, just like you make a lot of things up.

It basically just shows a trend. That trend - you don't know what you're talking about, and when you do that you make things up to suit your opinion without you being able to realize that others know better.

>>the fact remains every year there are surprises and every year your so called experts call a few things wrong...

Yeah but they're usually smaller than calling how many rounds are in the draft. That's a fairly large one to get.


>>I'm just not high on Peppers or Jammer as a #2 pick. Would I like them late in the first or early second, yes. Too many high profile DBs have gone on to either be marginal or suck.

And how many first round QBs have come out of the box and been perfect? It's called tunnel vision.

 

>> "There's a difference between him being unable to make a play and him being a bad leader. "<<

Actually, both in sports and business, part of what makes a leader is their ability to win or be effective in the tuffest of times, so no there's not a big difference -


Yes, Collins performance on the field was better than anything Bline could imagine.... he was a leader on the field - but agian small minds tend to not have the ability to seperate the good from the bad. Talk about tunnel vision... If you folks could just look past what he did that next season... and you forget, had Collins never punked out on the team, we would have never seen your beloved Bline, and he would have probably been traded off by '98.

Yes I am sure Peppers and Jammer will go in the first 5, I just said I would not pick them in the first 5 - and if I did it would be Jammer...

MVM, there you go again thinking you speak for the group... pity. You speak for yourself and a handful of groupies that worship your ability to spew what is written in sports articles all over the internet... your a smart guy, and you know a hell of a lot about the game, I don't think I have ever challenged fact with you - the only facts you have about Bline are his stats... the rest is opinion or speculation - Its not everyone's opionion that he was a leader on the field, some guys just don't have that extra edge that make them winners at the sport they play - Steve was a winner off the field, and in regards to physical tuffness, he was no doubt a winner... as far as the rest goes...

As far as Collins carrying Blines jock strap... Maybe if Bline had Collins strap on in '99 with all those stats to go with it we would have gone somewhere - oh I forgot, it was everyone elses fault. Steve never had any game losing turnovers in '99 -

 

>>Actually, both in sports and business, part of what makes a leader is their ability to win or be effective in the TOUGHEST of times, so no there's not a big difference -

So Collins had it tough eh? A third of the playbook, a running game, and a dominant defense sure is tough. That's strenuous.

Sorry, leaders don't get two starters pissed at him. Beuerlein might not have been what you wanted, but he never called Norberto Davidds-Garrido a spic and he never dropped the N word on Muhammad. I tell you what, that's what I call a leader. Get your line and your receivers pissed off at you, have one punch you in the mouth, then get a glass jaw after one cheap shot and never be worth anything under pressure ever again. Oh, and then quit completely on two different teams. That's a guy I wanna push myself to work harder for, how about you?

>>Yes, Collins performance on the field was better than anything Bline could imagine...

Uhh, okay. Put their best seasons head to head. NO contest.
Put their careers head to head. Collins has only broken 20 TDs once. Beuerlein was good for at least 17 if you gave him more than 3/4 of the season and wasn't responsible for the turnover percentage Collins was...and we're talking about Beuerlein here. The guy who couldn't hold onto the ball.

>>he was a leader on the field -

Uhh, sure.

>>but agian small minds tend to not have the ability to seperate the good from the bad.

I'm assuming you're not attempting to insult me. You're not that damned stupid.

>>Talk about tunnel vision... If you folks could just look past what he did that next season...

As a starting quarterback he was a function of the team around him. He had a defense carrying him, and when he didn't have that, he didn't have much. And he has every bit of the God given talent anyone has ever had at QB.

>>and you forget, had Collins never punked out on the team, we would have never seen your beloved Bline, and he would have probably been traded off by '98.

I don't love Beuerlein. I'm sorry you're unable to understand what someone's opinion is after dealing with them for two years, but I guess I overvalue the way you think, as if there was some purpose other than to be contrary.

>>MVM, there you go again thinking you speak for the group... pity.

I make my statements based on the league opinion and the opinion of the majority. When I have that majority I speak of it. I'm sorry you have such a problem with it, but deal with it, because I'm not to blame for your insecurities and poorly veiled lies. If it's untrue, show me how. If it's legit I'll listen. If it's not, I'll make fun of you for being bitter enough to make something up to attempt to trump me.

>>You speak for yourself and a handful of groupies that worship your ability to spew what is written in sports articles all over the internet...

You said you were a wise man...when'd they teach wise men to pout? (Jewel)

Handful of groupies? Sorry, ain't a soul in the world my groupie. Nobody ever kisses my ass here, and the only kudos I get on my own board is for keeping it up and for having knowledgeable fans. I can't help I keep good company, for the most part. I also don't control anyone's thoughts but my own. I don't attempt to, either.

>>you('re) a smart guy, and you know a hell of a lot about the game,

That has nothing to do with anything. It's knowing limits. I work within mine, you go out of yours, and you lie to cover up holes in your story since you go on gut feelings rather than common sense. When you lie, you lose credability. The making fun of you part just comes as a bonus. And I don't speak alone on that one either.

>>I don't think I have ever challenged fact with you

Just the lies, right? Ever actually come up with anything on Weinke falling to even the fifth, much less the "eighth"?
Or are you just going to stay silent like usual and tell us what we already know?

>> the only facts you have about Bline are his stats... the rest is opinion or speculation

And when basically anyone on the team was asked, they called him a leader. The offense didn't have much else in 99 to take the reins, and in 01 it showed that the offense wasn't led the way it had been.

>>Its not everyone's opionion that he was a leader on the field,

Who's opinion was it that he wasn't a leader? I had a problem with a lot of things about Steve, but this wasn't one of them.

Still, I asked for backup on your side of things, that people didn't think he was a leader, and not even a mumble out of you. Nothing in writing from Willie the Trash Man who you made up to sound as if you had connections, either.

>> Maybe if Bline had Collins strap on

OK, now you make sense. Still, underage people read this board. I'm going to have to censor you if you keep on with this QB fetish thing. That's disgusting.

>>in '99 with all those stats to go with it we would have gone somewhere -

8-8 with our talent level was damn good. Going 5-2 at the end was about as good as anyone, and without a defense. That team was the talk of the league, and it was led by quarterback play. No matter how much you hate Beuerlein or talk him down, you can't get that to disappear.

>>oh I forgot, it was everyone elses fault.

Which do you blame - an offense that scored 45, or a defense that gave up 56? I blame the defense. Sorry, that's just common sense.

>>Steve never had any game losing turnovers in '99

You're thinking of 2000. ..




So this is what it's about, then. Weinke was a part of a losing team, so he gets the boot? Nevermind that he was hurt. Nevermind that he wasn't in the right offense. Disregard that he has the tools, the ability, the mind.

Disregard that we have other needs, and that a quarterback takes time to develop. Hell, let's just draft a quarterback with each of our top three picks. When you're done with the next toy, you can have a fresh one waiting so you won't have to cry about the wait.

 

There you go with the ole JHOP 3 page response, man keep it brief... I'm sorry, I didn't think Collins said those things until after the completion of the '96 season - Which if I am correct, that is my whole point - simple minded people (not saying you), but people can't seperate his leadership in '96 from what happened after...

And as far as putting their careers head to head, I'd say Collins has already proven to be better at leading teams to high level games...

Leadership is in fact part of what I said... men (& women) respect leaders that lead by example, people that pull through and help the team win, make the big sale, figure out that structural problem 5 minutes before a deadline, not cut the wrong vien in a crucial surgery... etc etc...


Again, I never heard anybody that gets paid to talk about football say Bline was the guy they would want to go down to the wire with... It does not make him a bad guy or say that he did not have a pretty damn good arm and nose for accuracy... it just means, the players never had that feeling that Steve would bring them from behind or lead them down the stretch..

I agree that Wienke was not in the right offense and I also said I'm ok with him on the team, I just think long term, he is not the guy. He would be better suited as journeyman backup, which is what Steve will be remembered as.

Yes Steve did have a few game losing turnovers in '99 and as you know was in the bottom 3 of all QBs in the red zone in 2000.

 

>>There you go with the ole JHOP 3 page response, man keep it brief...

Don't play the game if you're going to pout into it.
The end result here is that this style holds you accountable to what you say and yet you don't answer any of it. you know why? Because you can't. You can't bring backup where


>>I'm sorry, I didn't think Collins said those things until after the completion of the '96 season

And of course, that makes him a leader. Just not after 96? Uhh, okay. Yep. I know a lot of people who are "leaders" when they're winning because of a great defense and a strong running game but get to slack out, drop racial slurs, and then quit later on. That's a true leader, the one that's a true bitch


>>Which if I am correct, that is my whole point - simple minded people (not saying you), but people can't seperate his leadership in '96 from what happened after...

In other words, if a guy's a psychotic axe murderer, he could have killed people from 1990 on, but he wasn't one until he was caught?

>>I'd say Collins has already proven to be better at leading teams to high level games...

Uhh, sure. Collins was such a huge part of that Giants team that he immediately got paralleled to Trent Dilfer.

Hey, see that quarterback? You know why he's going so slow? He's riding his defense's coattails.
Ever actually pay attention to the big picture rather than just using the details that make your argument look good?

>>Leadership is in fact part of what I said... men (& women) respect leaders that lead by example, people that pull through and help the team win, make the big sale, figure out that structural problem 5 minutes before a deadline, not cut the wrong vien in a crucial surgery... etc etc...

and then have visibly no respect for him.

I dunno. It seems like you keep preaching leadership, but you don't seem to know what it is. You're saying production is part of leadership - no, it's part of your job. Leading by example means going out of your way for the job - doing the extra. Giving up the body, getting on someone's ass when it's needed,

Hell, Collins even badmouthed his freaking position coach. What a leader. I guess you'll say he was part of some Alice Cooper anti-coach rebellion thing that brought everyone together.

>>Again, I never heard anybody that gets paid to talk about football say Bline was the guy they would want to go down to the wire with

That's irrelevant. Would you have listened if anyone HAD said that? Or did you simply erase it from your mind when you got bitch slapped for whining that someone said it?

You still haven't shown anything, anywhere, that actually shows Collins was a leader at all, much less better than Beuerlein.

>>it just means, the players never had that feeling that Steve would bring them from behind or lead them down the stretch..

No. It just means you hate Beuerlein and you're trying to talk down his intangibles. .

In the end, no. What Collins didn't do in 1996 that he did in 97 only solidifies that he wasn't a leader in 96 either. Team leaders don't suddenly, after a year, just come in and suddenly punk out. Leaders are simply leaders for the duration, and Collins' track record here does not point to a leader, even as far back as 96 and 97 when the team responded better to Beuerlein.

 

Sport, nobody is pouting, laughing perhaps...

Any way all you have to prove that Bline was a leader on the field is opinion... I don't have to back it up, I know what I heard, your the one that does not believe me, you do the freaking research, I told you to check HBO and see if they will give the transcripts from the 2000 season - you'll find it there.

No, you have a ways to go. I assure you 9 times out of 10, being a leader in the business world is more than being productive... people need to count on someone that knows how to win. Steve had no history of ever being a clutch guy - the players knew it... its kind of funny that the only real full season he had was with a team that only had 1 winning season...

And I asked you years ago to not confuse the issue or try make it look like I hate the guy... I have never said I hate Steve B the man, I simply said (1037 times) that he was not starter material and a host of very valid reasons on why he would not get the job done (winning seasons). Off the field yes he was/is a great human being, If I could afford his neighborhood, I'd love to have him as a neighbor.

I'll have to find this quote too, but several Giant players said in the superbowl year, they were very comfortable with Collins leading the team... I think Barber was one of them... The whole argurment is funny - how many seasons has Collins been the designated starter in the NFL? In how many seasons? There is a reason he will always have more seasons than Bline as an NFL starting QB. I did not like what he did away from the field on game days but on game day - yes he was and is a better leader.

 

>>Sport, nobody is pouting, laughing perhaps...

You're pouting. And you're back to that "sport" mess that shows your insecurities.

>>Any way all you have to prove that Bline was a leader on the field is opinion... I

http://espn.go.com/chrismortensen/s/2001/0313/1152623.html

Need more examples?
see next post.

>> don't have to back it up, I know what I heard, your the one that does not believe me, you do the freaking research, I told you to check HBO and see if they will give the transcripts from the 2000 season - you'll find it there.

If you know where it is, show me. Till then you're approaching being a habitual liar who's never backed up a thing he's lied about despite getting pissily mad about being called a liar. It's on you to prove your point, you have not earned the ability to have people believe what you say without source, and your problems in bringing up things you can't prove tend to help solidify that.

>>No, you have a ways to go. I assure you 9 times out of 10, being a leader in the business world is more than being productive... people need to count on someone that knows how to win.

And yet the only way you're able to give an example of Collins' being a leader is "by example" and by winning, even though you fail to admit that Collins' winning was behind excellent defenses and that Beuerlein had better personal statistics.

>>Steve had no history of ever being a clutch guy - the players knew it...

Really? How's that? Since no one seems to want to believe you, let's see where that's true. Until then it isn't.


>>I'll have to find this quote too, but several Giant players said in the superbowl year, they were very comfortable with Collins leading the team...

That doesn't make him a team leader. Being a quarterback doesn't make you a team leader, and Collins proved that. The Giants' leaders were unquestionably not including Collins - Strahan, Armstead, Barrow. Barber, Stone, even Jurevicius.

>> There is a reason he will always have more seasons than Bline as an NFL starting QB.

Physical tools. Nothing to do with personality, sacrifice, intelligence, or making game-winning plays. Neither player made game winning plays in the end, but Collins always had the better defense, the better tools, and many more chances.

>>I did not like what he did away from the field on game days but on game day - yes he was and is a better leader.

Until you actually give me an example I won't even bother paying any attention to this.

 

*The general consensus among most players was that Collins could never lead the team again.

Greene suggested, however, that Collins had never risen to the level of a full-fledged leader.

Kerry was still working toward that level of a being a leader on the offense and I'm not sure he ever obtained it," Greene said. "You can't foresee leadership. You're born with it or you learn it from your mom and dad. It can't be taught. You either have it or you don't."

*Jeff Brady said he believes the Panthers will follow Beuerlein.

"He's a veteran and the players respect him a lot," Brady said. "There's an uplifting breath of fresh air with him."

*As jolting as this week's stunning news has been on the Panthers, Davis said it may be the best thing for the team.

"We're much better off with any guy who wants to be on the field as opposed to any person out there saying he really doesn't want to do it," Davis said.

(and that's defensive leader Eric Davis, thank you.)
(http://www.reporternews.com/cowboys/coll1009.html)


http://www.reporternews.com/cowboys/car1009.html

"Rumors have gone around since Kerry made his announcement that the guys have rallied around Steve," (offensive leader FB and former Beuerlein teammate Daryl) Johnston said. "That's going to be a big plus for them."

>>(Beuerlein), a 10-year veteran who was a team leader, was waived because of the cap
(www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/sports/mcclain/858004)


>>He epitomizes the on-field leader that a quarterback should be
(realteam.com/insiders/ditka_today011.shtml)

Should I go on?
Those are a few of the results when you put in "Beuerlein leader" in a search engine. The first few of Collins as similar, bring up simil ar results about 1998 and then usually have mixed matches where they note Collins and then say "team leader Jesse Armstead" or "defensive leader Jesse Armstead".