Cautiously Optomistic

You're both right, now shut up!

We are starting Howard, Buckner, S Smith, and James instead of McDaniel/Fair, Gilbert, Byrd, and Donnelly. At the same time, we are NOT starting Weinke, Witherspoon, Foster (injury aside), and Mangum instead going with those best suited to help us in the win column (i.e. Peete, Navies, L Smith, and Walls).

Winning IS important. Don't forget that this is a business and if our first two home games are an indication, a little of the "win now" mentality will help to get butts back into seats. Only when you are regularly winning at home do you get the 12th man affect that all teams need to get by tough teams at home.

I like the balanced approach this staff is taking to make sure our young guns are developing while our wily veterans are are showing the children how it is done. If we start losing again, then you can complain.

 

Colin, for your sake i will shutup. but you should bear in mind that you are not the one he has called an idiot and a crackhead. in fact, about the only thing he has not slander about me is my avatar, which i suppose is coming. still, you supported me after he called me an idiot in full view of the whole world and pretty much left me feeling shattered. it was sweet of you to help rescue me from my depression, so i will grant you your wish . . . after this last post.

>> HeadCase, it isn't about this season. It's about the long term.

then why are you bashing our coaches for making a change at QB, this season, and complaining about us winning our first 2 games of this season, which you said fucked us outa our chance to draft a saviour?

>> You want things now and that's not the way to build the team long term.

I want what most Panther fans want and that is a winning football team. If we can't do it this season then as soon as possible. We apparrently disagree with how to go about getting there but it's hard to tell since you won't provide me with your plan ... other than some pollyanna bullshit. Mine is simple enough. Let Fox and Co. coach and start building a winning attitude by 1) winning some games and 2) getting the players to play intelligently and with energy (enthusiasm). After the season let them evaluate our needs and then draft and sign FAs accordingly -- without mortgaging our future by overpaying guys and making bad choices. Ya know, sorta like what Fox said when he got here and like what he did during this offseason.

>> Musical QB's is no way to get it done. If the staff had a problem with Weinke they should have gotten either Peete or Fasani more playing time with the first unit. It reflects poor planning.

No, that's incorrect. What it reflects is not having 20-20 hindsite, like you. I think the plan was to go with Weinke. They gave him every chance in the preseason to be the man. It didn't work out so Fox went with what he thought was his best chance to win some games and get his team off on the right track. You see poor planning. I see 2-0.

>> The problem I have isn't with Weinke hitting the pine

that's not what you were saying 2 weeks ago. you were quite adamant that winning the first couple games was not worth the damage it would do to Weinke. you were very much against going to Peete. of course now you say he is toast. must be nice to be able to flip-flop around like that. isn't 20-20 hindsite a wonderful thing?

>> If Peete is indeed their man, why no move to lock him in for after this year? If they have lost all confidence in Weinke, why wasn't it Fasani doing mop up duty last week? Why is Weinke still here for that matter?

You're asking a lot of questions that all of us would like the answers to. But the coaches don't owe you and me these answers. I'm not going to speculate cuz i just don't have clue. I think Weinke sucks and has no hope, which is not what I thougt coming into this season. But I could be wrong and maybe the coaches really think he is our future. Maybe we'll draft a QB or go out and get a FA. We'll just have to see how it plays out . . . and if it works out. I'm pretty convinced that Fox will not mortgage our future to win just a couple of games now.

>> When have I said to forfeit games?

When you said that it wasn't worth winning a couple of games at the sake of not developing our future QB. And when you bitched that by our winning these first 2 games that we had fucked ourselves outa a chance to draft your savior. Those are your words not mine.

>> Do you really think that you are better off winning a few games this year using guys who aren't going to be here benefits the team when those guys spots are going to be holes on the roster again next year and the guys you have left on the roster have gotten ZERO experience? It 's like a dog chasing it's tail. What I am saying is get the younger guys some PT along the way so you can make a better evaluation on whether or not they may be the long term answer.

No duh. And what makes you think that Fox will not do this? If you got specifics on what Fox is doing wrong, please share with us. or do ya need to get a little of that 20-20 hindsite first?

>> You want an answer about adapting to the teams shortcomings?

I know about hiding weaknesses and trying to take advantage of your strengths are. I don't think it takes an expert like yourself to understand these concepts. What I wondered is what exactly is your plan to do this -- ya know, you being the expert and all. And how you would do this and still develop our weaker players? And again, specifically what ya see Fox is not doing well -- besides winning? And it would be nice to see your thoughts before a game as opposed to your using 20-20 hindsite to bash the coaches.

>> You build a team mainly through the draft.

Think Fox said that was his plan.

>> Many point to the last two years picks and granted we have gotten some good players, but take a look at what's left on the roster from the first six drafts . . .

yea, yea, blah, blah, blah. already been said a million times before. the guy that wasn't here is Fox. why can't ya give him the benefit of the doubt? so far, he's gotten off to a real good start and the team is playing good football for the first time since '96 IMO (and maybe the second half of '99)

>> Mortgaging the future?

My question was really, what has Fox done to mortgage the future? Why are you so fucking negative after we have just won our first 2 games. Some fans are predicting playoffs and that upsets you? Fuck, do you have any fun or is your fun going around bashing others so you can somehow feel superior?

>> I'm talking rewarding our own guys who produce before buying high dollar guys on the FA market . We stepped up with Moose, Minter, and Rucker, but we waited until the last minute to do so. What I'm saying is if a guy produces, don't wait until his contract is in it's last year or already expired to do something. You offer a guy long term security before he has a chance to even think about FA and he's more than likely going to jump at the deal. You don't think locking in Morgan, Jenkins, or Steve Smith aren't worth looking at earlier while the team may still have some leverage instead of letting them hit the open market and upping their price is wise? Sure there'll be a need to sign FA's to fill holes, but getting your own guys under contract tends to limit those holes.

First of all, I think your talking about Hurney's function. I thought we talking about the coaches. Secondly, what you say would make sense but being just a casual fan, I'm not really aware of all the dynamics and ramifications of extending these guys. I'm thinking it may not be as simple and clear as what you make it. But i don't know so will not argue with you on this point. If we lose one of these guys, I will be pissed and join you in grilling whoever is to blame at the cross. But I do think it would help us in keeping these guys if we had a winning team -- the sooner the better.

Since this is my last post to ya, I'll summarize in saying that I really don't think ya have a clue. Ya just like to bitch to make yourself feel superior while pretty much coming across to me as a dickless dumbass. Your arguments flip-flop all over the place and you've never answered any of my questions with any intelligent foresight. The only difference between you and me is that i admit upfront that i'm a dumbass . . . and, well, i do have a dick.

 

My bad HeadCase. I should have included the telltale that indicated that I wasn't really serious about the "now shut up" part.

I think I understand what T_Schroll is TRYING to say even though he's saying it badly. It is kind of like...if we hadn't gone 1-15 last year we wouldn't have got Dr. Peppers. The problem with that arguement is that eventually, you'd like to give your fans some return on their investment. After so many seasons without a winning record, I'd like to see some dividends.

 

I see how it works now HeadCase. You're free to criticize others and admit you're a dumbass so your comments are valid therefore no one else should have any input. Damn boy, you'd be perfect for government work or a DNC staffer at the very least. And if you do have a dick, some one's missing one. It's not about feeling superior to any one's reasoning (or lack thereof) it's about what I see to be in the team's long term interests.

We've had three coaches here now, each supposedly having the build through the draft philosophy. Call me jaded, but upon further review the first two didn't stick with it. I have news for you, if JR gets to feeling that itch, Fox won't either.

Did it ever occur to you my comments concerning Weinke are based on what we have been told by Fox? He's our starter, then we're going with Peete he gives us the best chance to win but Chris is still our future, to Peete's now the permanent starter, but Chris has had his best week of practice. Not much consistancy there is it? At this level you don't sit back and hope something works out. You do things to insure that it does or you ditch it altogether and move on. You don't sit there and blow smoke up some one's ass just because it reads well in the press.

My main question is this-do you want to build a team like the Bengals who's best days are long gone and continue to struggle? A team like the Falcons who are cyclical and win about every 5 to 7 years just enough to keep the fans moderately interested? Or are you like me and want to build a team that's consistantly in the playoff hunt but may have an occasional mediocre year like say the Dolphins or Broncos? We aren't this year's Patriots, but no one would be happier if we were than me. I just don't see it happening though.

All of comments/suggestions are based from the HISTORY of what's gone on with this franchise since day 1. And your's are based on? I forgot, you admitted you're a dumbass.

 

man, i just skim over the posts when they get too long. is that wrong?



anyway, i think that if the franchise had a win now (at all costs) mentality, they would have found a way to sign watters and freeman -- two areas of DIRE need before the season started.

i think this teamhas a good mix of young and old players.

i'm very happy with peete starting and weinke on the bench. it's proven to be a good move.

and, "leaks to the press" are usually coordinated by the coaching staff. shhh. little-known secret.

also, when it quotes "sources close to the negotiations" -- that's the GM, agent, player or coach -- someone who knows, not some spy listening outside the door. sometimes, you'll even see them actually quoted in the same story for the smokescreen.

 

franchises use the press. dont be surprised if you hear that the panthers are shopping weinke at some point in the offseason. better to let fasini play a bit later on, let weinke be talked up by the staff and let peete finish the season (if he can).

i'll bet anything that they try to trade weinke for a No. 3. let's see, there's dallas, washington...

 

I think after Monday night, Spurrier might listen to an offer for Weinke now.

 

>>man, i just skim over the posts when they get too long. is that wrong?

I usually stop once I see it getting personal or I feel like I could get into it with one of them. Usually. Right now they're just arguing the opposite sides of being reactionary. One's towing the line like a good little puppy, and the other's trying to dig under the fence.

Depends on my demeanor, you do have to grab my attention to keep me reading.

 

sorry, message boards aren't much good for five second sound bites. Repeating mantras, towing the company line maybe. The works already been done for you and boiled down to buzzwords ("enthusiam", "excitement" and the like). Repeat them always and don't question anything even if there's a long track record of doing the opposite. Don't worry, be happy!

 

MVM, Larry, sorry this may be long, stick with me here. This ain't directed at ya'll so much as submitted for your approval.
I know everybody's been downing Capers, JR,S-fert, and now Fox for their decisions regarding personel, who stays, who starts, who plays , etc., etc., with 20-20 hindsite, second gueses, and speculations. Are any of you who are reaming the Panther administration paid by a professional NFL organization to make decisions? Have you ever? Have you ever coached or made personel desisions (football, or other sort) on any other level?
I'm one of the hardest core Panther fans that has ever existed, in fact almost obssesed with the team since even before the first draft.
I know they have done plenty of shit over the years that needed to be complained about, even by the most uncaring fan. The organization has done lots to deserve the bitching.

Read VOR's post in the "peace" thread.
He's got it right. We gotta football team, We won 2 games in a row for the first time in forever. We may even be the WORST 2-0 team ever. We may be the worst 3-0 team next Monday. We won a home game for the 1st time in a year and 1/2! We are higher than 30th in the power rankings! Damn, we might not win another game this year.

Guys in my office arguing the same shit you guys are here. Can't be happy with shit. Were'nt happy with Collins when he started in '95. Were'nt happy with B-line, ever. Wanted to see Craige cause he was the second comming and our future. were glad to get Lewis, then were glad to can him. Were'nt happy with Capers by 1997. Loved replacing with S-fert, hated him by 2000. Bla, Bla, Bla.

For those of you real Panther fans who live in the real world:

You do build teams through the draft if you want a Foundation of players who grow together, if you can keep them- it's a good thing, and hopefully will be competitive and keep that "window of opportunity" open for a number of years.

The best case scenerio is that you have that foundation, drafting good players to come along to replace the players when they get over the hill, but drafting them a few years before so they can learn with some experience, without being leaned on too heavily.
Fill the holes with decent FAs at bargain prices. Think you would ever have a winning team without a FA or two NOT under a one year contract? A continuous winning team for a number of years?
Has never happened. Never.

It would be great to have a team comprised of players who you originally drafted, playing together between the ages of 21 and 28, yet all be top 3 draftpick quality......but in the real world that ain't gonna happen.
Ideally it would be the best to have a mixture of guys, FAs and draft picks, while paying the star quality guys enough to keep them with you and happy, rewarding the rest the best you can with what's available. IMO you never pay the top 5 guys 70% of the cap, nobody's worth that, not even R.Moss + M.Faulk + K.Warner + T.Holt + B.Urlocker(sp). Why? Because the rest of your team will suck because you can't pay anyone else Jack, and what happens when one or more of these guys get hurt or fail to produce (ie: don't 'feel like playing', yet makes 7-9 mil per yr.)?
And six years down the road when none of them are playing and you're STILL paying them with cap money? That's where we're at now, just getting out from under it.

You ALWAYS want to win, yet not motgage your future on win-now thinking, yet you find decent younger quality guys in the FA market, and don't break the bank with them like we did Gilbert.

However, there's nothing wrong with paying an older vet minimum or just above, to fill a hole sometimes for a year, even a QB, if that's what it takes to get your confidence back, and your fans back into the stadium. What if the REST of our team is pretty good this year, and very good next year, and we have to bring in a young FA, OR a rookie? We have wins this year which will be good for the team as a whole, and a new QB next year won't have the enormous pressure of being our savior. Also we might not lose all that many while the rest of the team carries the new guys filling a coupla holes?

There has to be a balance.

Sure, Peete's not our future, but if you wait for your 'future' guys, at all the positions to win, you may never win anything, thus always having to replace you 'future' good players who leave 'cause they're tired of losing and want decent pay.
I don't know if CW's our future, in fact looking at tapes of last year, and the preseason, I don't have faith that he is anything more than a second string. In fact the knock on him was his age, so not playing him this year- next year he'll be 31, and before he even gets to play and 'comes into his own' as a quality starting QB, he'll be as old as Peete and SteveB, so WhyTF waste the effort and the pipe dream? Give up the season and let him lose so we can see if he is our QB of the future? Hell, we go 2-12 this year and the Panthers won't have much of a future for years to come, because they'll become the BUngles of Carolina no matter how CW or Fassini do. It will do Fassini(sp) good to carry a clip board this year. it can't hurt CW right now either. But if they're thinking about bringing in a FA next year, don't you think a decent QB FA might WANT to come here more if we show we can produce, even with someone like Peete? I think it helps our chances for everything for the future be trying to win NOW, but with what we have. They qwill be looking at others you guys metioned as far as signing them to long term deals, but I'm sure they need to wait to see how the season shakes out right now without jumping the gun, and over/underpaying any of our future guys a t the moment.

Oh, they need to get more/better scouts. That is an unarguable statement. That definitely couldn't hurt the team's future, especially when it comes to getting burned with FA. maybe some "moles" planted throughout the NFL...

Just sit back and enjoy the ride, it won't be so bad. Hell, we won a game. There's a lot to be thankful for. Gotta go for now, later...