Can we talk about forgiveness?

This issue is being discussed in my group and i've kept my mouth shut on it cause one of the members has some strong opinions on this and she uses some of the bible to validate her opinions.

She says God CANNOT forgive a murderer so she will Not either! and then she quotes some verses.

Some say that they will let God do the forgiveness, they will not.

I can't grasp my mind around how i am suppose to feel if i am forgiving. I've said it with my mouth but do i really feel it? The American Heritage Dictionary defines forgiveness as: 1. to excuse for a fault or offense.
2. To stop feeling anger for or resentment against.

In this definition, i have clearly Not forgiven. the anger and the resentment still goes on inside me. In my prayers, i have asked God to open the hearts of Amanda, Jeremy and Douglas and that they will accept Jesus Christ in as their Lord and Saviour. and I ask that THEY will ask for forgiveness for what they have done.

Am i really forgiving them? just typing that i forgive them makes it feel like someone has reached into my chest and is squeezing my heart tightly. if i really forgave them, would i be having these feelings? would i still be feeling anger and rage when i think of what they have done to my father?

Is it okay just to say, "God, i give this up to you". when you give it to God does that mean the feelings are suppose to go away? I just can't quite comprehend "forgiveness".

and to add, my forgiving them has nothing, nada, not a thing to do with their punishment. I think it clearly has everything to do with my heart.

 

There are several verses that actually command followers of Jesus to forgive. You can go to www.biblegateway.com and do a Gospels search for the word "forgive" and see what you come up with.

I'd love to see what verses the person you mentioned is using to claim God cannot forgive a murderer. Because if it's true, then neither King David nor the apostle Paul were forgiven.

And forgiveness in the Biblical sense is not excusing or forgetting. It is turning an offender over to God's judgment instead of our own. And after doing so, choosing not to hold the offense against the person anymore. It is a choice to transfer the offense and the judgment for that offense completely over to God Himself.

Jesus said, "Whatever you have done to the least of these, you have done to Me."

God told the Hebrews, "It is mine to avenge. I will repay."

Until you can fully trust God's judgment over your own, you'll never be able to let go of your anger, JB. I know this because I carried anger for my mother for almost a decade before I was able to release her to God's judgment. Only then could I begin to love her again and not feel the pain of her abuse anymore.

 

I agree with HB, that forgiveness BEGINS with turning the situation, the sin, over to God & allowing God to deal with it however & whenever he sees fit. That is a choice you make in your mind.

Dealing with it in your own heart--& actually beginning to FEEL forgiving--that's another matter. That takes time, & you absolutely must deal with your anger & other feelings straight-on in order to reach that point. You can't just decide to forgive because you should, or wish your anger away, or pretend you don't feel it anymore. It will sneak back up & bite you in the ass sooner or later.

I found counseling very valuable to me in confronting my real feelings, understanding the reasons for them, expressing those feelings in an honest way in a situation in which I felt "safe" & free. A friend who is open-minded, non-judgmental & a damn good listener is probably just as good as a professional. But you need someone with whom you can express yourself openly. And still, it will take time.

I wish you well in this, JB. I can say from experience that it is a joyous relief to finally free yourself from pain & anger. You'll get there.

 

been trying to get down. to the heart of the matter.....

 

jb, you should never ever forgive them.... imo

 

Hey guys, i'm not ignoring ya, i've just been super busy lately. i have an interesting article that someone gave.

The Sin of Forgiveness

by Dennis Prager
Wall Street Journal, December 15, 1997

The bodies of the three teenage girls murdered by a fellow student at Heath High School in West Paducah, Ky., were not yet cold before the students of the Christian prayer group that was shot at announced, "We forgive you, Mike," referring to Michael Carneal, 14, the murderer.

This immediate and automatic forgiveness is not surprising. Over the past generation, the idea that a central message of Christianity is to forgive everyone who commits evil against anyone, no matter how great and cruel and whether or not the evildoer repents, has been adopted by much of Christendom.

The number of examples is almost as large as the number of heinous crimes. But one other recent example stands out. In August, the pastor at a Martha's Vineyard church service attended by the vacationing President Clinton announced that it was the the duty of all Christians to forgive Timothy McVeigh, the murderer of 168 Americans. "I invite you to look at a picture of Timothy McVeigh and then forgive him," the Rev. John Miller said in his sermon. "I have, and I ask you to do so."

The pastor acknowledged: "Considering what he did, that may be a formidable task. But it is the one that we as Christians are asked to do."

Though I am a Jew, I believe that a vibrant Christianity is essential if America's moral decline is to be reversed and that despite theological differences, there is indeed a Judeo-Christian value system that has served as the bedrock of American civilization. For these reasons I am appalled and frightened by this feel-good doctrine of automatic forgiveness.

This doctrine undermines the moral foundations of American civilization because it advances the amoral notion that no matter how much you hurt other people, millions of your fellow citizens will immediately forgive you. This doctrine destroys Christianity's central moral tenets about forgiveness - that forgiveness, even by God, is contingent on the sinner repenting, and that it can only be given to the sinner by the one against whom he sinned.

These tenets are unambiguously affirmed in Luke 17:3-4: "And if your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if seven times of the day he sins against you, and seven times of the day turns to you saying, I repent, you shall forgive him."

This flies in the face of what passes for Christianity these days - the declaration, often repeated, that "It is the Christian's duty to forgive just as Jesus forgave those who crucified him." Of course, Jesus asked God to forgive those who crucified him. But Jesus never asked God to forgive those who had crucified thousands of other innocent people - presumably because he recognized that no one has the moral right to forgive evil done to others.

You and I have no right, religiously or morally, to forgive Timothy McVeigh or Michael Carneal; only those they sinned against have that right - and those they murdered are dead and therefore cannot forgive them. (Indeed, that is why I believe that humans cannot forgive a murderer.) If we are automatically forgiven no matter what we do - even if we do not repent, why repent? In fact, if we forgive everybody for all the evil they do to anybody, God and his forgiveness are entirely unnecessary. Those who forgive all evil done to others have substituted themselves for God.

When confronted with such arguments, some callers to my radio show offered another defense: "The students were not forgiving Carneal for murdering the three students," these callers argued, "they were forgiving him for the pain he caused them." Let us summarize this argument: You murder my classmates, and the next day I announce that I forgive you for the pain you caused me! That such self-centered thinking masquerades as a religious ideal is a good example of the moral disarray in much of religious life.

Some people have a more sophisticated defense of the forgive-everyone-everything doctrine: Victims should be encouraged to forgive all evil done to them because doing so is psychologically healthy. It brings "closure." This, too, is selfishness masquerading as idealism: "Though you do not deserve to be forgiven, and though you may not even be sorry, I forgive you because I want to feel better."

The rise of the theology of automatic "forgiveness" is only one more sign of the decline of traditional religiosity and morality. As Yale Prof. David Gelernter, who was severely injured by the Unabomber, notes in his thoughtful recent book, "Drawing Life," the 1960's made making moral judgments the greatest sin. He points out that none of his pre-1975 dictionaries contains the word "judgmental." Today, judging evil is widely considered worse than doing evil.

Until West Paducah, I believed that Christians will lead America's moral renaissance. Though I still believe that - many Christians are repulsed by the demoralization and dumbing down of religion - the day those students, with the support of their school administration, hung out that sign I became less sanguine. If young Christians have inherited more values from the '60s culture than from their religion, where can we look for help?

 

Until you can fully trust God's judgment over your own, you'll never be able to let go of your anger, JB. I know this because I carried anger for my mother for almost a decade before I was able to release her to God's judgment. Only then could I begin to love her again and not feel the pain of her abuse anymore.

thing is HB....i don't trust my judgment at all and i totally fully trust God's judgement but that still hasnt done anything for the anger and pain caused by them murdering my dad. i can't just turn off my feelings. so, does this mean i am a failure at this? i really just can't grasp this forgiveness stuff. i mean, i trully hope they can turn their life around and i hope they ask forgiveness but that don't take the hurt away, it don't change the fact that my dad is gone.

 

You are in no way a failure JB! You are human. The anger and resentment are natural human emotions. These people not only killed your father, they stole him from you. I lost my father at 13, and felt angry for years. I think it may even be more natural for us since we lost parents at young ages, when they weren't supposed to go. Our whole worlds abruptly changed, and we were powerless to stop it. In your case, actual people caused his death, and you have a focus for your anger. I think that may make it harder to release the anger. It is just going to take time. Don't beat yourself up about what you feel. It truly is human.

 

i agree Wonderwoman, it is human to feel. I was also 13, my 13th birthday was just days before they killed him. How did your dad die? I'm sorry you had to lose your dad at such a young age. How old are you now? Do you think it played a big part in the person that you are now?

Sometimes i really do believe that my anger is a good thing. It sets me on fire, it gets me moving, it helps me get things accomplish. it helps me get involved and help other hurting people. course i just gave credit to anger when all the Glory should go to God!

 

My father had a cardiac arrhythmia. It was a Sun. morning, and he was on the green of the first hole of the golf course. My family all had plans to go fishing that afternoon, and I was really excited about it when I went to bed. I woke up to my Mom's scream as she got the phone call that Daddy wasn't coming back.

My life is definitely a lot different than I think it would have been. For one thing, I wanted to work for my Dad. I am now almost 30, and still think about all the things in my life he can't be around for. I was the first person in my school to lose a parent. Ever since then, anytime someone's parent dies, they always want to find me, and talk to me about it. I guess it is an honor that people want to turn to me for guidance. Not that I know much to say, but I think it gives them solace to know someone else who has been there. Some cities have places and camps for children who have lost a parent. You may find that volunteering your time at one of those places could do wonders for you as well as the kids.