Atheists

Lets not forget about the role the Holy Spirit plays. Jesus told the disciples It is good that I go for if I don't the comforter won't come. When a person truly believes and accepts Christ I believe that there is an indwelling of the Holy Spirit that takes place. Changes begin to take place from that moment forward from the inside out.

 

True, and that's where Jesus' warning in Matthew 7 comes into play. He said that not everyone who associatest themselves with Him are necessarily His. He knows the difference, and they will suffer the same fate as those who do not believe. From what I've read in the Qur'an so far, Islam agrees with this in principle.

 

not explicitly, but in general, religion comes from the idea that you should behave a particular way and then give reasons why.

 

it's best function? i wouldn't make that judgement, but i do feel it is more essential as a civilization is just starting out.

sorta like a parent is more important when you're a child. as you get older, you understand more and can make decisions for yourself. i view religion as sorta a parent figure for a society.

 

True. But I'm learning that in today's society, many if not most non-religious people have a code of ethics they live by, even if they make it up as they go. Most people, I think, agree that just about everone has at least some sense of good and evil without indoctrination. Would you agree with that?

 

Interesting...

Would it follow, then, in your view that religious adults are likened to kids who don't ever leave home? I'm not trying to bait you, I just want to pursue this line of thought and see where it leads. I've never heard anyone say anything like that before.

 

I don't think being moral and doing what's right has anything whatsover to do with being religious. It's rather offensive to be stereotyped as a thief or liar because of my lack of faith, actually. Common sense can't be attributed to religion, imo. Common sense dictates that it's wrong to steal and lie, coincidentily, so does the bible. I don't thinks it's mutually exclusive. Plenty of "bad" people can be found to further a case for either direction really, so I doubt if anything conclusive could be determined. I think self-righteousness is just as bad as stealing and lying, of course, christians never even realize they're doing it, so how can it be wrong?


The only difference I see is that christians can ask for forgiveness when they do something wrong, and atheists really just answer to themselves. You really can't just say that the basic morals of society are exclusive to religious people.

I really don't think mental faculties have ANYTHING whatsover to do with your belief system. I really don't want to get into a pissing contest, but I'd wager I'm just as intelligent as anyone here, and I'm really offended by your suggestion that I must be stupid or something since I don't believe in God. It's really ludicrous. It's just as likely that those that do believe, are easily manipulated followers who can't think for themselves.

 

I agree for the most part, Rez. But here's an arguable difference between the religious and non-religious -- accountability. Really, I feel that's at the core of the argument between the two sides. The religious choose to be accountable to a system, doctrine, belief, being that is superior to themselves. The non-religious choose not to -- they prefer that the buck stops with them, so-to-speak. As an atheist, would you agree with that?

If so, couldn't an argument be made that it's easier to justify 'bending the rules', if they're your own rules, and you're the only one you're accountable to?

To be clear, I'm not saying atheists bend the rules any more than the religious do. Like I've said before, I've broken 9 of the 10 commandments, and it could be argued that I've broken all 10. I've bent and broken as many rules as the next guy, so I'm definitely not raising myself to any kind of higher level than anyone else.

 

well, there's obviously more ways to be accountable than just to your religion or diety, such as being accountable to your peers, society in general, the laws of the land, etc. You have to be accountable to yourself first though, before you can ever worry about any of the others, including a diety. Sure, we all bend rules (human nature), why should someone who can ask for forgiveness of his diety be afforded any more latitude than someone who is simply accountable to the society in which he lives?

 

Peers and the law, I can see. We're all accountable that way to one extent or another. But society in general? Could you expand on that idea for me? I'd like to get a better picture of that, especially in a society like ours that's more fluid and less steeped in tradition.

Great question. I, for one, don't think they should be. In fact, for some religions, I believe a strong argument can be made that believers should (and do) have less latitude than non-believers.

But herein lies the dilemma: you just posted that it's human nature to bend the rules -- to do what we want instead of what we should, if it goes against our will, and I agree wholeheartedly. As one theologian once put it, "God has asked us to be living sacrifices. But the problem with being a living sacrifice is that we keep trying to crawl off the altar." So how much weight does being accountable to ourselves really carry? If we can bend a rule and justify it in our own minds, is it still wrong?