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Are there any Jews on this board?

Discussion in 'Religion & Spirituality Forum' started by sdplusbeauty, Jun 8, 2006.

  1. hasbeen99

    hasbeen99 Fighting the stereotype

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    I agree, in a way. Congregations need to do a MUCH better job of keeping church leaders accountable.
     
  2. hasbeen99

    hasbeen99 Fighting the stereotype

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    Here's the difference, though, Lainey and it's important. The New Testament book of Hebrews explains pretty well IMHO, how the sacrifice of the Christ (or Messiah) has fulfilled the Mosaic Law, once and for all. For those who have accepted the grace of Christ, the old laws are no longer laws. They still have a significance, but no authority.
     
  3. hasbeen99

    hasbeen99 Fighting the stereotype

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    I agree with everything you've said here. :xyzthumbs
     
  4. Lainey

    Lainey Barbie Girl

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    I don't agree.

    "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17)

    "For I say to you absolutely, until heaven and earth pass away and everything is accomplished, in no way will one small letter or one minute punctuation be taken from the Law" (Matthew 5:18).

    "Do we then make the Law void through faith? May it never be! Rather, we establish the Law" (Romans 3:3 1).

    "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But, whoever shall do them and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:19)

    The commandments are law. Also, one last thought - If Moses is the house, and Yeshua is the builder, why would Yeshua tear down His own house (Hebrews 3:2-4)?
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2006
  5. articulatekitten

    articulatekitten Feline Member

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    Interesting you posted this after I had been thinking about all this & started a thread on OT law. I would agree with you that Jesus still intended his followers to continue following the commandments, keeping the annual festivals, & so forth.
     
  6. Lainey

    Lainey Barbie Girl

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    I'm sorry I didn't see your thread. I was thinking about what Hasbeen had posted.

    Otherwise,I just wanted to say, I'm not one to try to impose my beliefs on anyone else. I don't think I should be continuing this as a debate. From what I have posted I want to say this...as I have stated, I am not Jewish. I am not trying to be Jewish. Ben and I are Gentiles and who feel that we are to respect the Law and we try. To us, Yeshua came to uphold the law and not to start a new religion. Gentiles are not to be Jews but we are grafted in.
     
  7. sadic1

    sadic1 Full Access Member

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    True, but I elaborated more than that in saying that I really define Protestantism as "Bible study+fellowship". Since you agreed with me to some extent in saying that Protestantism has sought to strip itself of ritual and many things typically considered "religious", than my definition doesn't seem that far off. However, I am guilty of cynically editorializing about the intent and/or effect of Protestantism being to strip away the tools to talk to God, so I'm sorry to you, kshead, and anyone else that bothered for that.

    While I believe that less effective communication with God and pushing of individual agendas is a frequent byproduct of the vast changes to Protestantism since Luther, I have no basis to say if that was the intent in the design or the practices of worshippers. I base that generalization on the idea that any prayer that expresses the will or desires of the person praying does nothing to help that person hear or understand God's will, while praying in a structured, meditative way is designed specifically to shut down the conscious will of the person praying so they can receive true insipiration and understanding of God's will. To me, it's like talking versus listening. You can't do both at the same time. I feel that in promoting prayer in your own words and for a wide variety of personal intentions, the Protestant faiths often promote talking to God more than listening to Him. Again, that's just my opinion, and I'm not trying to change anyone's mind or offend anyone.
     
  8. sadic1

    sadic1 Full Access Member

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    I think you're assuming that focusing only on Christ is the most affective way to commune with God, and that Christ is God's only incarnation. I believe that God literally consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, so to endeavor to speak and/or listen only to Jesus is to leave one's potential to feel God somewhat undertapped. I guess what it boils down to is that a lot of the ritual and meditative practices in Catholicism are designed to help people tap into and be filled with the Holy Spirit. In my experience, the Holy Spirit is where the impossible becomes possible and where real miracles, both internal and external happen. This is where I don't know enough about Protestantism, though, because I don't even know if Protestants acknowledge the Holy Trinity, but based on my belief in it, I feel that God is more than just Christ. God happens on a physical, mental, and spiritual plane, just like all things in nature. I believe to only pray to Christ directly is to refuse to follow all paths to God. This gets back to the idea in the Mary thread about how if you love someone and want to know them better, you want to get to know and love all of those who they know and love, not just them. But if you don't believe in multiple facets of God, I guess I understand where you're coming from by only focusing on praying directly to Jesus.
     
  9. sadic1

    sadic1 Full Access Member

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    My bad on that one, I'm sorry. I know that nothing you do with respect to your beliefs is pretend. I'd like to scale back my comment to say that the limited structure and tools provided by Protestant faiths don't promote communication with God. I do believe that your fervent desire for God has brought Him to you, but I believe that's a testament to your resolve and has happened in spite of lack of religious structure, not because of it.


    I agree that was a product of spiritual warfare. I hypothesize that your chronic depression is as spiritual an issue as it is a physical one (and that the 2 are rarely separable) and reflects an unfulfilled need for the Holy Spirit element of God in your life. That's what the Holy Spirit fixes in people. It literally fills you and makes you joyous, courageous, and inspired. I would argue that you have paid amazing and wonderful attention to the word and law, but possibly neglected the existence and importance of the Holy Spirit in your life, possibly because the Protestant faiths don't nurture that relationship through ritual and the multi level approach to worship that I've described. I think you're kind of a special person, though, because lack of the Holy Spirit is what allows some religious people to be merciless, and you are a merciful person. That's what originally led me to be disillusioned by Protestantism after trying different brands of it for many years. The one negative thing they all seemed to have in common was that even if they said and did good things, the bulk of them never seemed to have any sense of true joy, inspiration, or mercy, as though that and right words and actions were somehow mutually exclusive. I kept asking myself, "If they claim to be so happy about Jesus and being Christian, how come they don't seem to have any joy and they seem so merciless toward people who act out on their deep flaws and issues?" In retrospect, I think that specifically speaks to the Holy Spirit issue as stated above. Again, just my observation and really anything I say specifically about you is more of a possible theory than an assertion.


    That's an interesting way of looking at it. I definitely agree that we may get a response from a negative source or entity when we pray in the wrong frame of mind. Whether God receives all prayers or not, I don't know. Being omnicient, I guess He knows everything, but is knowing your prayers and "receiving" them the same thing, and does it matter if he "receives" your prayer if eavesdropping demons respond? Interesting conversation either way, though.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2006
  10. Fan. Attic

    Fan. Attic Upstairs Lurker

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    Sadic, the quote from you above is telling. You're making a lot of confident assertions about the beliefs, practices and motives of Protestants based on very scant knowledge, it would appear. I'm not here to question your good experience with Catholicism or whatever negatives you may have ben exposed to in your contact with individual Protestant congregations. But I think I need to point out a few things:

    The Protestant Reformation was a widely-based movement in Europe, of which Martin Luther was only the most visible figure. There were numerous reformers, including John Calvin, John Knox and Ulrich Zwingli, all of whom contributed much to the Protestant understanding of the Church. It's true that Luther's Protestantism was closer to the Catholic church than many Protestant churches today, but that was true in Luther's time as well. Most of the other reformers took positions further removed from Catholic theology than Luther's.

    Your earlier suggestion that Protestant churches have no governing body is only correct for a minority of such churches. Among Protestant congregations there are three forms of government used. Hierarchichal (eg. Episcopal churches, governed similarly to the Roman Catholic church); Representative or Presbyterian (eg. Presbyterian and Lutheran churches, govern by regional bodies and a national Synod or Assembly); and Congregational (eg. some Baptist churches, where each church congregation governs itself, with often some guidance and standard from a national association).

    The history and lineage of Protestant churches can't be dismissed as easily as you would like. The primary motivation of many reformers was to return to a New Testament understanding of the Church, before layers of extra-biblical tradition and corruption (which you have rightly acknowledged) were introduced in the Roman Catholic church. I'd argue that if you go looking for churches that most resemble what is described in the book of Acts and in Paul's epistles, you will find many Protestant congregations (and even denominations) that are a passable match. Many Protestant churches make use of the Nicaean and Apostles Creeds, statements of belief developed within the Catholic church 1000-1200 years before the Reformation. Far from being detached from the earliest roots of the Church, Protestantism would argue it is more faithful to those roots.

    You've also described Protestantism as "a very generalized belief system with no real structure or organization." From its inception, the Reformation churches have sought to codify their understanding of Biblical doctrine and practice. For starters, you might Google two titles: Westminster Confession of Faith and Heidelberg Catechism. You also could try the term Systematic Theology. I think you'll find that far from being "a very generalized belief system" some branches of Protestantism are downright blanketed with structure and organization.

    All that being said, it's true that the history of the Protestant Reformation, with influences from different regions and reflecting the emphases and personalities of different leaders, does not present as unified a front as the Roman Catholic church does. And Protestant churches are not free from corruption. Regardless of the system of government, many congregations and even denominations go astray on various points.

    There are, in fact, Protestant churches that have the faults you have described. But to apply the broad brush as you have done to all of Protestantism reflects a significant lack of knowledge (not to mention charity) on your part.
     

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