Are there any Jews on this board?

It was only at one specific point in that one thread which is not this one that I felt that way and said that. I have not intentionally busted chops in this thread at all, nor did I in the majority of the Mary thread. Also, the Mary thread was specifically about Catholicism versus Protestantism with regard to how Mary is perceived and treated, so of course there are going to be assertions and comparisons happening.

It's 2 threads, and I don't think I've bashed Protestantism in either. I've explained what I think is wrong with it and why. You got some baggage on these issues or with me in general, I fear. Otherwise, you could just state your opinion as it contrasts with mine and elaborate on it.

 

Jews have worked hard to preserve their culture. Their worship though, is not what has worked for them but, what the Torah instructs them to do. There are a few things that are tradition (I prefer this word instead of ritual) such as the wearing of the kippah which is really respect. But for the most part, they practice what is written. It tells us in Leviticus 11:1-40 how we should eat. The Tallit, or prayer shaw, serves as the 4 cornered garment on which to wear the Tzitzit, which again, is described in the Torah. The Seven Feasts, the Menorah...it is all there and it is so very interesting.

So, when you consider that the Jews are only following the Torah, you realize that most of their practices are not exclusively theirs but they belong to us all. Yeshua was a Jew and as Hasbeen pointed out, understanding the Torah and Jewish faith makes the New Testament more understandable.

Hebrew was the language of the Israelites so the Tanach (Old Testament) was originally written in Hebrew. Yeshua spoke Aramaic (sp) and Hebrew. When the New Testament was written (1st Century) the major language was Greek and therefore the text was written in Greek and not Hebrew.

 

Just because most Protestant denominations don't use timeless traditions and rigid structure as vehicles to connect with God (some charismatics do), don't make the mistake of equating that with a lack of desire and/or purpose to do so. At least not across the board, anyway. Seeking God's will is a very significant part of my church's statement of faith, for example. I would argue that emphasis (connecting with God and seeking His will) is becoming increasingly dominant in many of the postmodern Protestant churches in America today. Not all, mind you. Maybe not even most. But more than just mine, I'd wager.

I'd argue that's true for any Christian. If you're not interested in where the Lord is leading you, it's time to get off the bus. Check your blessings at the door on your way out.

 

My focus has always been on Christ. If I focus on a ritual, how can I be completely focused on Him?

Our prayers and submissions are certainly restricted to God's will, there's no doubt about that. But when we pray for something that is in God's will, and is in His time, I wholeheartedly believe we can "ask for something and 'get it'". I know too many people who have experienced exactly that. Admittedly, these are very spiritually mature people with serious prayer lives, not your stereotypical Sunday morning Christian. But still, it can and does happen.

 

Just my point of view here: Ritual, for me, is a means of focusing . . . but it's accomplished somewhat indirectly. The repetition of actions & words, the music, atmosphere, dancing, all of that . . . it sets a mood & helps me empty my mind of all it's accumulated "noise" & concerns of the material world. It's a tool for shifting to another level of consciousness. That shift includes a deeper awareness (what you might call "listening to God") as well as the ability to focus on a specific purpose if I wish (sending healing energy to someone, for example) far more clearly.

That's not to say that ritual is necessary to accomplish those things, though. It's a great tool. But those spontaneous blessings & expressions of gratitude are well worthwhile also.

Edit: The repetition I refer to, to serve it's purpose, becomes automatic enough that you don't have to think about what you're doing per se; but the symbolism & the acts themselves infuse you with a particular mind-set.

 

The Pope? The rituals? In their essence, rituals are nothing more than actions intended to conjure (for lack of a more appropriate term) the presence of Christ. I don't believe man can force God's hand through combinations of actions, words, or locations. I believe God's presence is drawn by a sincere, repentant heart, regardless of how that heart chooses to communicate. The Bible says that for those who have been born again, the Holy Spirit prays on our behalf (Romans 8:26-7) anyway.

Agreed, on all points. At the risk of a semantic argument, Peter was indeed "the rock", but he was not the only one who received what was handed down by Christ, however.

I think you're oversimplifying to make your point here. Protestants agree on more foundational issues than that.

While I would reluctantly agree with your sentiment on an individual basis for many, many people (my church is full of ex-Catholics), I wouldn't say that is the mindset of most, or even many, of today's Protestant church leaders. I'm just not seeing a whole lot of, "Hey! Come see us on Sunday! It's okay -- we're not Catholic!" advertising going on.

As far as "righting the ship", the Protestants (admittedly, in theory) use the Bible as its plumb line, although that's far from a bulletproof method. Like I said earlier, there is no such thing as a perfect system as long as people are running it.

 

You didn't suggest it, but your assertions leave that as the only practical outcome, as I have never once prayed the rosary or received the Eucharist. I'm not offended, I was just trying to present an 'end result' of the claim you were making. That's all.

Corporately, the Protestant churches I've been to have mainly been an encouragement for me to seek God out, to pray in faith, and approach Him as both Father and Lord. At times, they have given me surroundings to do that in an uninterrupted environment. But as far as telling me what to pray, the only example given was the Lord's Prayer. Again, every guideline to prayer I've ever been taught has been straight from the Bible itself.

That's an awfully inflammatory word coming from a position of ignorance. By that, I mean you can't possibly know if I've actually spoken directly with God (or the Holy Spirit). No human being can. Just as I can't possibly know if you or anyone else has or not. We just don't have the ability to know that for certain.

Spiritual warfare. Or, possibly a manifestation of my chronic depression which just picked an arbitrary date and flashed it in my mind.

I have chronic depression. A large portion of my day-to-day life is tainted with fear.

That I agree with, with one caveat. I believe any prayer directed toward God is received by Him. I have just learned that there are others listening in, and the response I get may or may not be coming from the One to whom my prayers were offered.

 

Actually, I don't think he is. I think he's talking about Protestantism as an abstract whole, and not really considering the individual at all.

The beliefs he's posting aren't about the individual, nor are they directed toward the individual. He's arguing against a philosophy, not a group of people.

 

No, you said it wasn't a religion; that it was a group of people pretending to talk to God and arguing over Bible interpretation to suit their own agendas. Maybe kshead was making an inference, because I agree that would suck.

In effect, yes, but not in purpose. I think the original intent was to strip itself of anything that looked like a government, which the "big 3" you mentioned earlier certainly have in the past.

Agreed.

 

For many churches it is becoming so, and a lucrative one at that.