A question for the believers......

haven't read everyone yet, so sorry if this is rehash for those who've posted.

I just see them as people with opinions that differ from mine. I don't feel any different about them than if I didn't know what they professed, religiously.

My feeling, which is mostly comprised of observations of people I know who I saw "turn", is that most of them were angry at God or people who professed to be his followers but misused it/flat out screwed it up. It seems that no atheist I've ever met, at least anyone who had it out to share that he/she was atheistic, was actually apathetic toward God or religion, and yet I know a ton of apathetic people in that regard. Bizarre, really.

It does seem that atheists have a lot of inner turmoil spiritually. I don't mean to directly suggest that people with strong religious beliefs have no turmoil, but there's a direct link IMO between that atheism and an anger/problem with a specific issue.

I have a problem with this - a lot of the atheists I know wanted to directly attack what I believed - usually to others, and without mention of me. Just attack it, because they were defensive about their own. I found that kinda distasteful (and do realize that too often, religious people do treat it as a right to judge). But in the end I don't like being typified as some radical conservative christian "fundy" who's closed minded just because the person facing me is a radically liberal atheist.

 

i love my wife and i respect the pledge i made to her when we were married. we made our pledges in front of a gathering of friends and loved ones with whom we've shared our lives and intend to continue that sharing. to me, that's what the ceremony was about -- a sincere pledge before the people that matter to me. my wife is spiritual, but not explicitly religious (tho she does consider herself christian). to her, perhaps god was watching, but not me.

the chapel was simply a beautiful building in which to perform the ceremony. the officiant was simply the person assigned to us by the chapel as the person to perform the ceremony. i honestly don't even know anything about that particular chapel's religious convictions and they didn't ask about ours. they're swedenborgian if you're curious enough to look it up. there was some scripture read, but hey, it's a wedding afterall.

i realized early in the process that while the nut of the matter was she and i pledging our love, the other 7.8 hours was for everybody else. they expect a white dress, tuxedos, a best man, speeches, dancing, food, a chapel, a priest, music, etc. so that's what we did.

not to sounds too corny, but just because i don't believe a god put it there, doesn't mean i don't have love i my heart.


in regards to your view of atheists...

people use an interesting argument for the defacto belief in god -- it's basically "what have you got to lose?" if you believe in god and are wrong, there's no harm. if you don't believe in god and you're wrong, then you could be in big trouble (depending on which god it turns out to be).

i suggest a variation along this line of thinking. instead of pitying an atheist, wait till you get to heaven, then pity them/us. that way, if there is no heaven, you haven't wasted your precious time on earth pitying people who need no pity. and if it turns out there is a heaven, you've got all the time in the universe to spend on anything you want. it's a win-win!

 

i'm curious how much of that has to do with where you grew up. i know PLENTY of apathetic atheists. heck, i just assume they're atheists, maybe they're agnostic or the popular "unaffiliated". i would say most of my friends growing up certainly didn't profess any form of religion and if asked would probably say they were agnostic of atheist.

come to think of it, i do remember one guy who professed atheism in high school. tho most people i know tend to go after the fundamentalist ideas without making a strict profession of their own.

 

Sup... first of all I wish someone would teach me how to do that multiple quoating thingy.

As for your ceremony, I think what you said about your wife and it being a pledge of your love is one of the sweetest and genuine things I've seen lately. I do believe that you have the right to feel any way you want to feel and you doing it for your wife and the others there was a very selfless thing to do. I did look up the swedenborgian chuch, and thanks for teaching me something and thanks for answering.

About my pity syndrome... your answer was funny and I did catch
the sarcasm - in fact so hard it might leave a bruise. It did leave me feeling as if I should explain why I feel pity though. ....
When things in my life happen that devestate me and bring me down.. ie (I lost my brother in January last year and my Father on Father's day when I was 5.5 months pregnant) I don't know how I could survive if I didn't have God to go to and ask him to help with my pain and believe truly and wholely that there is a purpose for him taking my family from me so close together and never letting my Daddy see my baby. I had to believe there was a purpose as painful as it was. I admit I don't ask him to be in my daily life as I should, but without somoene/thing to have faith in I would feel so alone. My pity comes in when horrible, devastating things happen to non-believers- they have no one to turn their sorrow to or even place blame with. Maybe they can draw peace from within but mine comes from believing.

 

Interesting rebuttal to Pascal there Nut. I would say the argument back is that one in Heaven has no need for such earthly pursuits.

 

it's easy! you just add {quote} and {/quote} by hand (but replace the curly craces for the square ones).

thanks. it held a lot of meaning to me even if it wasn't of a religious nature.

i was trying to choose my words carefully. i didn't want to call you on the carpet for someting. sorry if it stung, it didn't really intend it. i thought it was sort of funny.

thanks, tho, for clarifying you position. i'm sorry for your losses, i've suffered similar so i can empathize. religion has done many great things for many people. i think it's a good thing, i'll never suggest that it's not. but it's not for me. i think i have a pretty good handle on how things work, but if i'm wrong, i'm wrong. i can't answer the questions that religion attempts to answer so i simply don't ask them. when i've suffered losses i've alternated between wanting to be around things i still have and enjoy them as best i can, and wanting to be left alone to contemplate what i've lost. i'm a firm believer in people mourning in their own fashion.

 

>>]i'm curious how much of that has to do with where you grew up.

The type of people they were (passionate, possibly; full of turmoil, most definitely) moreso than anything. The locale might've been more of the idea that there's a strong belief system that comes from one's elder, whether it be religious views, even version of race and history. That and I'm certain that a few cases were directly from a terribly poor-intentioned street-screaming corner preacher.


>>i know PLENTY of apathetic atheists. heck, i just assume they're atheists, maybe they're agnostic or the popular "unaffiliated". i would say most of my friends growing up certainly didn't profess any form of religion and if asked would probably say they were agnostic of atheist.

These, however, aren't people that find the discussion of religion an every day battleground. I don't doubt that there are atheists that are apathetic - but I'd say that the greater portion of apathy does come from people who haven't explored their religion rather than people who've denounced it.

I'd also say that the denouncing of religion seems to be the greater part of what I've witnessed, and that there's seemed to be that anger there, rather than a simple belief that God doesn't exist and having left it there. I dunno, I'd assume that's what atheism is, rather than issues with God.




>>it's basically "what have you got to lose?"

That's a horrible rationale for God. Whoever said that one, I dunno, wasn't apparently too convinced. It's a belief - you believe or not, or are looking for the answers in yourself and your surroundings. Faith isn't hedging bets.

 

Threads like these make me realize how people are still so prone to sterotype each other. We have people on this board that feel like athiests/humanists are the greatest threat to the American way of life since ... well, ever. We have others that can view Christians only as "Fundies" intent on destroying any vestiges of personal freedoms.

I appreciate how Nut is so eloquent in his beliefs, or non-beliefs, as the case may be. When I see words used like "pity," "arrogant" and "ignorant" used in connection with non-believers or ones who believe in a different religion, I feel insulted to some degree, but mostly I feel sad.

I'm not terribly surprised by this, I've been living with it for over 25 years. I do hope that discussions like this can get some people to view things in a different light.

PS. I was married in a church by one of my wife's minister uncles. We did it out of respect to our families and their beliefs. As for our beliefs, we wrote our own vows, no prayers were said by the minister but we did have the Lord's Prayer sung.

 

That's why I try to stay away from the pity part. That's a dangerous road.

So, instead of pitying you I shall patronize you instead by telling everyone to pray for you like I am doing.