hurney

Bye, youll be back though. Just like Purrsy, you cant keep away.

 

Like now, when you've proven nothing? That's the thing. You find this some competitive game, and you act like you're also the ref. Which is why you couldn't answer four very basic questions when trying to tell me that I "couldn't stop".

You have an opinion about JR, which is based in very, very little actual info, and requires a stretch to get to any sort of parallel conclusion.

No, and clearly not. Maybe reading what I'm saying would help.

And, you know, I've bent over fucking backwards to not give off that conclusion, but still, it comes down to this for you, which is why you resist it with your entire being. I've said numerous times now that JR's input doesn't mean Hurney isn't culpable for his own actions.


Denny’s was one portion of a company that JR was running. Carolina is a single entity. For me to find relevance, I’d have to see that the loyalty caused some form of harm, and that it was widespread across more than a small portion. But, again, this is a shell game. Loyalty didn’t save minority owners/sons, and JR answers to more than himself. You ignore that over and over, and with answering to a group of the city and state’s more powerful business people, comes having the power they’ve entrusted. You commonly pull out the “he’s not Al/Jerry/etc” but there was never a claim he himself was the GM. His title is listed as owner, and he’s the face of the franchise. In the partnership, he’s the managing partner. Most everyone’s been clear that the GM is Marty. That doesn’t mean Marty isn’t given specific directives about what to do in many circumstances, critical decisions.



We know JR pulled the plug on 2001, 2010, we know he planned to keep 08 together in 09 to provide the relief in 2010. He championed a new CBA since 2007, led the charge in 2010 in the lockout, and in negotiations. So you’re telling me that in each of those situations, JR was either doing Marty’s bidding in some role reversal, or that he essentially took control of his team and a leadership position in the NFL, just so he could relinquish any control of a team he built with his own hands? It seems like you have no problem extrapolating his entire character from a business low point of sorts, 18 years ago, but are unable to find that there’s any link pre-lockout and post-lockout, a matter of moments apart with a direct link to his own efforts?

We have words from JR himself on it, from Gross, from Marty. Don’t have it in front of me, but he talks about taking the Olsen trade to JR. Seems like none of us have first-hand knowledge (currently) but things aren’t that far removed from what I’ve heard in the past, and there are statements that continue to suggest his involvement. Doesn’t mean that JR said “draft more receivers”, “trade away future picks”, or anything like that, either.

Just seems unreasonable, and moreso to deny it’s possible. Furthermore it seems to go against what I know of business or leadership. I really don’t want to spend another twenty years arguing over the Quincy’s menu, but I think you’re wrong, and I think you’re too tinged by this Hurney thing to see it. But, claim your victory and all that.

 

I showed that Richardson protected the people running Denny's for him during the litany of racial discrimination incidents, and that he was eventually forced out as CEO because he was so resistant to making changes. That squares with how he's been handling the Panthers, but again, you have this weird obsession with trying to defend Hurney and pin Marty's moves on JR.

My opinion regarding JR is backed up by facts and shared by pretty much everyone. Your opinion on JR is backed up nothing and supported by almost no one. The notion that Marty only made his numerous mistakes because Richardson told him to is bizarre and ludicrous.

True, but you're arguing it from the perspective that Hurney deserves blame for following orders. You're trying to pretend that things like trading future picks, giving out egregious extensions, etc all come from Richardson and that Hurney just carries them out. There is no evidence whatsoever to support your assertion, and plenty to argue against it.

What?

Apparently you know very little about them. In the business world the owner very rarely makes direct, day-to-day decisions. Owners hire people for that purpose. Pretending that Hurney is just a glorified secretary is your way of trying to minimize his culpability for the mess he's created. Hurney fucked up repeatedly not because JR forced him to, but because Hurney is hopelessly incompetent.

 

....cmon magnus, youve gotta get past this common sense thing and get on board with Collin. You could end up like me, a broken shell of a man ignored by the real owner of this here fine board. Dont test his powers.

 

I don't think Hurney is going to be charged with racial discrimination. I truly don't believe that "everyone" is making arguments using Denny's. Funny you waited until now to pretend you're some sort of champion of this opinion, though.

which makes you wrong.
And no, I'm not saying Hurney deserves to be free of blame. I realize that's the only thing you do care about, is Hurney's blame.

Some extensions, yes. It's not as if I just fucking said "Doesn’t mean that JR said “draft more receivers”, “trade away future picks”, or anything like that, either" one single post ago. It really doesn't matter what I actually say, you're not arguing with that. You're arguing with things you've determined that, between the various things that incense you about all this, you pretend I say instead.

you've never heard a JR interview, have you? His 2002 one, the "excitement" one, he talked about the changes he forced in 2001 that led toward what they wanted in Fox.

>> direct, day-to-day decisions.

Determining how we're going to come out of a lockout he helped impose, and then negotiated out of, isn't like JR setting the practice schedule or booking hotel rooms.

Determining how we're going to come out of a lockout he helped impose, and then negotiated out of, and then having a major say in how we come out of that lockout, is the only realistic alternative. Him saying "OK, I made the plans on this team going into the lockout, and then steered the league through the lockout, but Marty, you do whatever you feel like now that the lockout is over" isn't realistic.

But yes, as the managing partner of the nearly 20 total owners, he has a lot of say. He's not the only guy who has a stake in this, and in his 2011 presser, he reminded us of that.

And I bet if someone asked him four basic questions, he probably could.

 

I'm the first one to bring up Denny's, but most agree that Hurney is incompetent. I don't know why you pretend that he's just a yes man and that Richardson is the one who ordered all Marty's dumb moves, but there's no evidence to support that which is probably why no one else besides you (and Ted, since he was looking for anything to argue about against me) thinks JR is the mastermind. That's just like earlier in this thread when no one else besides you thought that Hurney was operating with a long-term plan.

Actually, unlike you I genuinely give a shit about the team. I want Hurney fired not because I hate Hurney, but because he's incompetent and deeply hurting the franchise. If he would be fired and replaced with even an average general manager, the team's outlook would improve dramatically.

I've read plenty of Richardson interviews, including when he said that he felt he had to fire Seifert. What I've never seen him say is that after he made that change he started deciding what players got extensions, what players to draft, or what trades to make. It's weird that you're so insistent that Hurney is just a yes man and that Richardson is really the one behind all the many screw-ups. As noted, the Denny's example pretty clearly shows otherwise.

 

Complete and utter bullshit. This guys a fucking genious!

 

You know, I make myself quite clear. You don't need to make up things I never said. Every post, it's some new blown-up statement that has nothing to do with what I said.

oh? I don't give a shit about the team, why again? Now you're just acting like your feelings are hurt. And no, bitching at anyone who will listen (and most that have stopped) about Marty Hurney doesn't make you a 'better' fan.

you clearly have both in play. You have reasons to dislike him, and then in typical fashion you have trouble controlling yourself.
For what it's worth, I've often said that if we can replace Hurney, I'm fine with an upgrade. I've even said that he could be reassigned and there would be little structural difference in what he does.

read harder, then. Guy doesn't exactly have a hundred million media engagements.

Yes, I agree. It's clear that a pancake restaurant example that's 1/5th of Richardson's CEO business is exactly the same as how he currently deals with one of his two direct reports. Tell me again how the Denny's example shows that Richardson is hands-off?

I mean, if you can't answer four very basic questions, you may as well try answering how he was hands-off at Denny's.

 

That's exactly what you've been saying. You claim that team decisions from Jerry Richardson, not from Marty Hurney.

Because you only care about validating your positions, just like back in the day when you used to argue against everyone who said that Seifert was awful.

What other reason would I have to dislike him besides him sucking at his job?

See, here again you're saying that Hurney is not actually a general manager. You keep saying it, then when I point out that you're saying it you flip out, post a bunch of smilies, and accuse me of twisting your words.

You keep missing the part where no one sees the world like you do. You've created this delusion where Jerry Richardson is really making all the decisions because you made a mistake and claimed that once, and everything since then has been you defensively inventing excuses to stand by that statement. The rest of the world can't understand something that only exists inside your mind. The rest of us see Richardson's business history and the other evidence pointing to the fact that Marty Hurney is doing the job of general manager, he's just doing it extremely poorly. Again, all the things Hurney has done regarding trading draft picks and extending players already on the team goes back to his time under Bobby Beathard in Washington. Jerry Richardson didn't serve under Beathard (for those who don't know, Beathard was notorious for trading future first round picks), and the Panthers weren't doing that before Marty Hurney took over as general manager.

Because he wasn't responsible for day-to-day control of Denny's, and even though the people he hired to handle control of the company for him repeatedly showed incompetence and outright negligence, he was so stubborn about sticking with them that he was eventually ousted as CEO.

 

I said some. Which is true.

no. I'm not putting up a fight because I'm defending Marty Hurney. I'm discussing the logical way that JR would act after the lockout, and you're suggesting he was clueless and non-chalant directly after he led a fight against the union, and prepared for the fight.

not the part to focus on, it's the part where you're not able to control your emotions.

well, I didn't emote like a teenager, but yes, I posted smilies. You were saying something in anger about how I was less of a fan or something but I guess you've abandoned that, just like so many other points said in anger. So fair enough, you just said it because you were angry and didn't mean it, I guess. Just like the four questions I posed, and why I posed them. You can't man up, you're struggling to hold onto this Denny's thing and that's about all you have.

You speak of delusions but I've never said he wasn't the GM, and have said it so many times now. You bring up trading picks when I clearly have said many times that JR has nothing to do with that. I honestly don't know why you bother quoting so many of my words if you don't bother reading them.

I didn't ask about day to day control, we both know he wasn't managing a Denny's. I asked about him being a hands-off CEO. You failed to speak about that.

While you're not answering questions, don't talk about the Panthers ownership structure either since I've brought that up, or where I suggested you go back into JR's own words. You'll search for an hour to find one word about menial changes in Julius Peppers' strength, while ignoring that I called him weak, but can't go see what the man himself says. Unsurprising.