Northwestern Mutual...

Maybe if you had completed your GED you would be able to spell simple words. Thanks for verifying above.

 

So, an unbiased source shows that NML has over-estimated the ROR and yet, you claim from the top of your mountain that the unbiased source is wrong and you know without a doubt what the ROR will be 20 or 30 years from now because, get this, NML says so. Drink the Kool aid LOLLER! The point of the article is that NML has over-estimated it's actual ROR so yes, that does make you look like an uneducated troll who got trained by a company to sell a crappy product that makes the company money and under-insures the consumer. Typical of an insurance salesman or LOL "Financial Advisor" as I am sure that is how you present yourself.

Furthermore you troll, people have lost 30% in the LAST YEAR. The overall ROR for the stock market even with this downturn is not a loss of 30%. This is how this industry sells their crap: FEAR. The reality of the stock market is short-term volatility and long-term stability. We know that over the working life of any average consumer, they can expect the stock market to go up 10% on average.

It's guys like this that cause our Seniors to go broke mis-managing their money and pulling them out of the markets at the absolute worst time, putting them in atrocious fee-heavy products to prop up their own companiesand which leaves us with Seniors begging for Social Security because they don't have any money themselves. It's a corrupt industry with a ton of people who are nothing more than Salesman parading around in their suits as Advisors.

But, it's like I said, you can believe my unbiased stats showing the reality or you can believe the NML guy stamping his foot screaming that proven under-estimations of the past are wrong and he can absolutely get your 9% because, well, he says so. NML-Madoff sounds more like a better name for this guy.

 

You crack me up wolfpac, it sure has been entertaining having this discussion!!! I give you an A for effort, you would make a great attorney -- you don't address hardly any of my arguments even though I point out that I agree with PART of yours.

Out of all of this, I have a few quesions; what will you do when your term insurance runs out? Have you ever talked to someone who owned permanent (whether whole life or variable life) that was past retirement and whose health was worse off than when they bought the insurance originally?? I am sure you will say you won't need the coverage because your retirement assets would essentially help you self insure -- The clients that I have in their 60's and 70's couldn't feel more financially secure knowing that if something happens they have a tax free benefit that comes in and replenishes the money they have spent. They have essentially put an umbrella over their estate that gives them immediate cash so they don't have to spend down undervalued assets, like their house or 401k, if they died in a year like 2009.

What about the effects of Long-term health care on an estate? The government can take everything a retiree has and leave the widow with nothing when the person dies in a nursing home. If a tax free benefit is there, it could save a widow that still has 7-9 years of life left...

Do you have a Series 7 or 66 since you know SO much about investing and tax law?

What about estate planning? What do you recommend for that?

What about business succession planning, when passing along a business to a child when there are other children that aren't working in the business? With what product do you justify that and what would you recommend?

What do you recommend for pension maximization with regards to survivorship options??

What about a family with a special needs child? What kind of instrument do you recommend putting into a special needs trust?

What about charitable giving? What is the most efficient way to leave behind a legacy to a charity or organization?

What do you recommend for a buy/sell agreement for a long term partnership or S corp?

What about diversification in general? How do you diversify retirement assets or do you throw everything into equities?


Have you ever looked at the tax consequences of withdrawing money from Mutual funds and other securities versus an insurance contract? You could take up to your basis out of a policy tax free, then borrow most of the rest of the cash value in policy loans therefore escaping income taxes. Sure you pay a % to borrow, but it is better than paying the tax. Then when a person dies, their beneficiaries receives that benefit minus the cash taken out TAX FREE. A very tax efficient vehicle for a higher tax payer, which will be all of us after this new election. But once again your argument only refers to ROR and nothing else.

The policy owners I talk to on a day to day basis that have paid premiums for 25 plus years tell me it is one of the wisest financial decisions they have ever made. But I guess they are wrong and so am I? 151 years and we have been screwing people...

I don't give a rats ass if you think that I as well as the company I represent is a scam, I don't care if you think you are Peter Lynch and you are the most savvy investor alive; the fact of the matter is that whole life insurance with a solid mutual company like Mass Mutual, New York Life or Northwestern Mutual is a good value for someone looking to help preserve their future estate and put money in a tax friendly environment. It is not the only thing available, it is just a financial tool that has unique properties unlike any other financial product. And in all of the situations I presented above, it is very efficient...

 

Once again you make statements and acquisitions that are not true. You compared our 30 year return to a 20, which our 20 year is lower, then you accuse me of predicting the next 30 years with a 9% return when I never said that.

The stock market does NOT on average yield a 10% return, so which index are you referring to??

You make fun of me for calling myself a financial adviser, when I actually am registered with FINRA, if you even know what that is. Are you?

And the kind of Seniors I deal with are trying to preserve wealth, not create it.

And the best part of all --NML Madoff. Have you looked at our financial ratings in a while? Oh yeah, my bad, they are the highest of any life insurance company. Northwestern Mutual has higher financial ratings than the federal government.

 

Considering I will be completely debt-free (mortgage and all) and my daughters will be done with college, what am I protecting and don't say the Death Penalty (or Death Tax but I like the Death Penalty connotation) as none of us know where that will be at or even if it will be around

So, your clients have mis-managed their money and you answer is a fee-heavy under-performing Whole Life policy

Absolutely would not argue with Long Term Care and that is a good NML product if only y'all would stop screwing the vast majority of Americans with Whole Life

You act like that is special to get. I don't because I haven't ever needed them in my job but they aren't that hard to get. Lord, you act like they are an actuarial exam or something. I know some companies who are taking kids out of college with no financial experience at all besides buying beer and putting them in a program to just get their licenses. Color me not impressed

A good attorney which I already have and I don't need a Salesman

A Buy Sell is good for partners though it is dumb to have a partner to begin with. I wouldn't personally pass a business to a child unless they are interested in the business and already an employee in the business to begin with but that is why they need a good Attorney to help them with that succession instead of a salesman

A lot of people choose 100 or 50% Joint and Survivor in their Defined Benefit plans but I would actually recommend them to take the Lump Sum and invest it themselves. Their ROR will be better in the long run than what their Defined Benefit plan will return. Oh yeah, I have worked with Pensions in the Actuarial arena in the past. Nice try

Good term insurance with the parents funding the trust themselves with their investments. This isn't the worst avenue for a Whole Life theoretically but you and I both know this isn't how it is sold for the vast majority of Americans and it would of course be ultimately dependent on what their disability is.

I have a good Attorney to help me set this up when I start to get close to this rather than a salesman

Explained Above

I, given my age, absolutely have everything in Equities but as I get older, I will evaluate my diversification based on the need I have of the money but it's not a one size fits all and in no way should people be yanking their money out of the market right now which quite a few Financial Advisors have done and it's awful.

With a Roth IRA, there are no taxes at all. A 401K lowers taxes up front and you pay taxes when you take it out which is why you take your company match first and then go to the Roth (assuming you meet the Salary guidelines which most Americans do). Your answer is to make me borrow my own investment OR when I die, the company keeps the Cash Value that I had to pay a ton of fees to build. Simply garbage and you know it!

Why do you think you have been around 151 years?

Whatever makes you feel better

 

Seriously, you are completely dense (typical actually). The point of the article was that NML's Illustrated Rate was higher than their Actual Rate when an unbiased source looked at it. That's fact and you can't argue except to say your Illustrated Rate is obviously correct because it is over 30 years instead of the 20 they looked at while missing the dadgum point of the article.

 

BTW, for the rest of everybody not in this back and forth, NML-agent is a salesman trained by a company to sell the products that are best for the company to sell with some exceptions. Doesn't make him a bad guy but most of these salesmen simply don't understand the math behind their policies.

Unless you are very wealthy, just do term, get debt free, invest in the stock market, and don't worry with this fee-heavy crap that these salesmen are peddling.

Here's an illustration of how I started to figure out this stuff was crap:

When my wife and I were just getting married at a young age, we were told we needed Life Insurance. So, we walked into an Agency not knowing any better and they put us in a $50K Whole Life Policy. Never talked to us about Term at all or explained how much insurance we needed and this was a FINRA adviser as well. So, we just signed up for it not knowing any better. 6 years later, we are still paying the premiums when I started to realize through some work I had done as well as finally understanding insurance that I needed to take a closer look at this policy. So, I went back and calculated all the premiums we had paid and it was a little bit over $3600. When we canceled the policy, our cash value was $1600. So, what happened to our $2000. Well, you could say that it all went to insurance but a $50K 20 Year Term Life Policy on a healthy 21 year old non-smoking female is right around $100 if you shop it around. So, the cost of insurance was $600 (6 years at $100/year) so that leaves us with $1400 missing which is basically their fees. They charged me more in fees than the doggone cost of insurance.

Now, look at it a different way, if we had got her a $50K Term Life, she would still be under-insured as she was with the Whole Life but we could have just paid $600 and heck, if I had just put the extra $3000 in a cookie jar, we would have come out $1400 ahead of the Whole Life policy. This is why it is crap for the vast majority of Americans.

 

BTW, his mention of FINRA made me think of something else we all need to do (BTW, LOL at his acting like I wouldn't know what FINRA was and oh wow, I feel so much better for him now that he is registered - LOL). If you have an insurance salesman and they are a part of FINRA, make sure you check up on them to see if they have been shady at all. FINRA's website allows you to check anyone registered with them at this link....

http://www.finra.org/Investors/ToolsCalculators/BrokerCheck/index.htm

 

I am glad that your attorney can solve all of your problems!! Unfortunately my attorney is my father and he already tries to do that anyways.

It truly has been an enjoyable debate, you have made me even more confident in the work that i do. After several years of being in the business, believe it or not I have heard EVERY argument you have made so far at this point. Although you believe I am uneducated, This summa cum laude graduate has researched every single point you have made in the event that in the field that particular objection gets thrown. Up to this point, I feel pretty confident in this debate.

You still have missed the entire point of my argument that above and beyond 401(k)'s and IRA's (although most of my clients earn too much to get a benefit from these), Permanent insurance of some nature has its place in a professionals plan, because not all investment decisions are based purely on rate of return. In fact, modern portfolio theory proves this.

You also have completely ignored the tax purposes behind investing. A 8% return to a higher income paying investor is with significantly less than it is to average Joe. You claim that whole life is underperforming? What is that compared to? If you compare it to Government Bonds, it has about the same risk beta with a higher return. If you compare it to stocks, it has a slightly less return over the long haul with a THIRD of the risk beta. Most higher income tax-paying investors would love to have a 7.5% return tax-deffered because A) they can't contribute to an IRA and have the tax advantages, B) they would have to earn a 10% or higher return in a taxable investment and C) they will probably need the insurance at some point for estate planning purposes. When you factor in the risk, it is an unbelievable value for a higher tax payer.

As for your most recent response, whole life is not a good value unless you can stay the course for 15+ years. You were right in that in 6 years, it was not good. Your agent should have explained the difference and probably sold you term, so if that is why you have a sour taste about whole life then I understand. But you can't assume that all advisors/agents and all insurance companies and products are bad just because you didn't have a great experience. Most of those contracts aren't worth the paper they are written on, and out of the 1900 life insurance companies there are THREE good ones that sell it; which is why most people think it is a shitty deal, and I don't blame theme because they simply haven't been educated on the subject.

I don't have to sell whole life, I can sell mutual funds and securities, annuities, and a crap load of other insurance products not only from NML but from about 80 other companies, so I don't know where you get this idea that I am a trained salesperson -- I am educated on both insurance products and investment products, with each one not having a one size fits all mentality but having its specific place.

The fundamental point of life insurance is to be in force at the time of death. If 20% of our population dies before 65, then 100% dies after the age of 65. Most people don't have term in force past 65, so essentially they have wasted premiums for years. You wouldn't pay your car insurance for 20 years and then quit, would you? Thinking that you had enough money if you wrecked to buy a new car or fix yours. Wouldn't it make sense to have some of your life insurance in force at the time of death??

 

My only point in bringing up FINRA was the credibility issue of you trying to act like you are an expert and say that I am nothing more than a "trained salesperson" when this is what I do for a living. I have learned, studied and put into practice the advisory services that I offer, and apparently you are more of an expert than I could ever aspire to be.

Although you said "anyone can pass a securities exam or become an advisor", I wouldn't put down an attorney and claim that he doesn't know shit about law, when he has a JD and I don't. For the same reason you might believe you are more intelligent than me and that I don't know squat, but at the end of the day I get paid for giving my advice, and you don't.