Top 15 all time

Agreed, stats can be misleading for sure, and Frazier was an excellent example.

I guess 45% is good for an outside type player, but in my mind 48% and would be a benchmark in my mind.

I think of players like Mo Cheeks, Magic, Jordan, Stockton, Walter Davis, Chris Mullin, Gervin, Westphal, Jim Paxson, Hornacek, Kevin Johnson, Frazier, Steve Nash, Oscar Robertson, Byron Scott, Calvin Murphy when I think of overall FG% from a guard. I realize Kobe is a better 3pt shooter than some of these players though.

Kobe is right there and above a lot of these players when it comes to an overall game though.

Let me ask you, so if you had to take just one player from the league today, who would you take, not talking about age, but just what you think they bring to a team today?

 

I can see your point in a way on this topic, but both players are/were for very different reasons. Kobe is all about Kobe, Michael was more about expectations on his teammates doing what they do best and not other BS type stuff.

Michael didn't always have the best approach to his teammates like Magic or Bird for sure, but don't recall him be really bad either.

 

I think Jordan was a great teammate. Not if you were looking for a hug, obviously, but he was spectacular at making his teammates better. Look at their stats with the Bulls vs. elsewhere. Meanwhile Kobe has been a horrible teammate until just recently. That said, he's still definitely a top 25 all-time player and arguably 10-15.

 

Jordan definately had that "makes teammates better" gene that Bird and Magic had as well. Not sure Kobe has that. Even now, with Kobe in trusting his teammates mode, nobody has really upped their game beyond what you thought them capable of before. He just has more talented teammates. Gasol and Fisher are definate upgrades.

That said, Kobe had some really awful players around him the last couple of years. There's not much you can do with Smush Parker and Kwambe Brown.

 

Kobe is also a better shot creater than some of those guys, who are better pure shooters. Kobe doesn't always take the best shots, last night was an example IMO, even though Jackson disagreed.

Tough one.

Lebron doesn't have enough of a jump shot yet. Duncan may be on the wrong side of 30.

It's between Kobe and honestly, Chris Paul, and I'd probably lean towards Chris Paul. With the rules being what they are today, you can't hand check, it's hard to keep him out of the lane, and there are not many point guards out there now. And he has the "makes people better" gene.

 

Maybe, but even though he made that top 100 or whatever, I don't see a lot of difference between Scottie Pippen and Lamar Odom. And once you get past Pippen, Jordan played with a lot of limited guys too. Horace Grant was a stalwart, but aside from him most of the other guys were journeymen who weren't desired by other teams. Jordan just integrated guys like John Paxson better than Kobe has done with his teammates. I think it just underscores what you were saying that Kobe isn't close to Jordan's level.

 

No, he isn't. With today's handchecking rules, I think Jordan would dominate even more now.

And yeah, people had the idea at the time that Pippen was an elite player, and he wasn't.

But he was better than Odom. Pippen was legitimately a defensive stalwart, could handle the ball and could create his own shot, and was consistent with what he brought. He just didn't have the makeup or the overall offensive game to be the man.

Odom is a soft and incosistent PF/SF tweener. Pippen had some of the passive makeup, but nobody doubled off him like the Celtics did Odom.

 

Defensively, you're right, but I just don't agree about him being better offensively than Odom. They were very similar on that side of the ball, even down to their percentages.

 

Scottie Pippen gets forgotten quite a lot due to being in Jordan's shadow, but it should be remembered that in the 93/94 season when Jordan was in his first retirement, Pippen averaged 22/8.7/5.6, and led the team to a 52-27 record, only 2 games out of first place. His scoring percentages dropped significantly once he left CHI though and he's never been a great % shooter.

The closest Odom has to that was the 2003 Heat, 17PPG with a 42-40 record in a very weak Eastern with a still effective Eddie Jones and a rookie Dwayne Wade.

Lamar Odom is an incredibly gifted basketball (I'd argue moreso than Pippen) but would appear to lack some of the drive of many of the best players in the NBA. At their respective bests, Pippen beats Odom down.

 

Haven't you learned to stop picking fights with me, Clay? You get humiliated time and time again, only you keep coming back. It seems like at some point you would learn to just keep your mouth shut.

Career marks:
Pippen - 16.1 ppg, 5.3 apg, 4.6 rpg, .473 fg%, .326 3pt%, .704 ft%
Odom - 15.6 ppg, 4.4 apg, 7.0 rpg, .460 fg%, .314 3pt%, .708 ft%

As noted, Pippen held a significant edge defensively, but offensively they're a wash. There was no need for you to give your two cents since you had nothing to add and were advocating a position that has no factual basis. Keep your mouth shut for your own sake.