Panthers/Giants game thread

McClover has good speed and a pretty good bull rush, but he needs to learn to recognize the mis direction stuff better, and he needs to use his hands to shed blockers better. Basically, he needs experience, which he will get this year. I also agree that Rucker played alot better than he got credit for last year... sacks aren't everything. Which brings me to another player...Charles Johnson is getting 0 credit, but I saw him make a couple of nice plays Saturday in the running game. Obviously, he has a ways to go, but I could definitely see the potential in him.

BTW, nice job...I can see that some of you really put some work and thought into this stuff and it's very interesting to read. Thanks

 

Great explanation on the Eagle. I've thought it was strange every time I see the OLB lined up inside the DE. Thanks.

 

I'm good with that, for now. I suppose it's a bit of a 'new toy on Christmas morning' euphoria, just seeing the TE integrated into the passing game a little bit. But I watched King's blocking, too, and while it wasn't exceptional, I didn't see anything that was beneath what I expected of him. I didn't feel he was measurably worse than Gaines, but I might be wrong on that.

Granted. But I don't expect much else from a second year, third string quarterback. He made a couple of nice throws, and I haven't seen anything yet from him to suggest he won't continue to develop. Not that I think he'll push Carr for the #2 spot anytime soon, I just think he's got potential, and maybe a future.

I noticed that about Gross' drops. It's better, but still not where it should be for a #8 overall pick. Not even close.

Granted, he had 23 QB pressures and 44 total tackles in 14 games, and that's more than respectable. However, he only registered 5 sacks in all those pressures, and shouldn't that be higher from a blind side end, considering how much attention Peppers gets? In fact, he hasn't had a 10-sack season in four years. I understand the job description of RDE isn't only sacks, but I do think it's a really important part of the job that he's not getting done nearly as well has he used to.

But that aside, he's now 32 years old and coming off a signficant knee injury. He was already having trouble getting all the way to the QB before the injury. It almost certainly won't be better on this side of it.

So you're comparing the awareness and instincts of a third year backup DE to an 8-year starter?

I'm not ready to praise McClover for his run-stopping ability or zone coverage. I'm just excited to see someone besides Pep get some fast penetration into the backfield and give a LT some serious problems. Granted, this is only one preseason game. Granted, he may not have even been facing a starting left tackle. His effectiveness will play itself out in the weeks to come. Honestly, I didn't expect much from McClover and I was pleasantly surprised at what I saw. He's still got a ways to go to be a complete DE in this league, but IMO, he's well on his way to being a solid starter.

Deke Cooper? Yeah, he was the only one I saw, too.

He could LS for years, but he won't be the first or second guy down the field for much longer, I think, like he is now. I hadn't realized he was as old as they reported in that game. Regarding Kasay, yeah, I couldn't agree more. Almost makes me wish we would've been able to hang on to Shayne Graham. He's been the only legitimate competition Kasay's had in recent memory. Kasay's exceptional, but the days of wine and roses won't last forever.

 

Robinson showed flashes, and I think he'll be a very good return guy if he can add a little more bulk. And I really don't see anyone else who has his upside.

Not an immediate concern, but sure, it's never too early to start looking for the next guy. We've brought in an occasional rookie to compete in the past. Could do that again next year. I like Kyle right now, and sometimes people forget that a LS is a specialist, like a kicker and punter. The only long snapper who I can remember being asked to do more than snap was Bartrum in Philadelphia, who played a lot of TE near the goal line.

Yes. In truth, there aren't as many as we probably think, but a top-notch gunner can make a huge difference in field position. I don't think we need a "kickass" guy, as much as we need a group of solid athletes who can get down field without overrunning the play. I know there are some reserves on this team who are capable of doing that, but it wasn't there Saturday night.

Shelton and Rosario were brightspots, imo.

yes

 

Having Bates, Smart, and even Cooper (when he played smart) was a significant factor, both in field position and psychologically. Bates and Cooper especially could really intimidate returners on a pretty consistent basis.

I'm hoping someone like Tim Shaw might be decent, but I don't know if he's got the speed for it.

 

He looks good enough to start, and we've got two guys to use situationally otherwise so it's not a big problem if he has growing pains. A starting 5th is neat.

yeah. His play hasn't gotten much better, but he doesn't take these awful drops anymore. Which is nice.

I have no doubt that part of 23 pressures (and numbers in the 30s there before) came from Peppers' work. Rucker still worked for every bit of it and has never been a quick, useless-against-the-run end. There's a ton of McClover hype right now and it'll be nice having him, but I also know I don't want him playing 90+ percent of snaps like Rucker has (Wallace or not).

He made a pro bowl in 04, though. And 10 sack seasons are akin to the top tier guys - you don't find many DLs with two 10 sack guys. It's not directly parallel, but it's also hard to find 2nd WR with more than 80 receptions.

you were comparing it to a 9 year guy, sure. I don't expect McClover to be able to do all those things, but I'm also not saying that he can 100% replace Rucker, and that's how I took your statement. Keyshawn didn't matter nearly as much as Rucker has, but right now I'm kinda worried that dropping Johnson with that attitude has left us miserably underpowered at WR.

 

I wouldn't disagree with that at all.

I fully agree he's never been "useless-against-the-run", and wasn't before his injury. But he used to be a lot stronger against the pass. He held the franchise sack record (until Pep eclipsed it), for crying out loud. He used to be a quick, good-against-everything end. Last December, he was a quick, great-against-the-run, pretty-good-against-the-pass end. Now we're not exactly sure what he is -- we'll have to see how well his knee recovers.

ATP, I wouldn't mind seeing a rotation between him and Johnson (who I have a hunch is probably stronger against the run than McClover). I don't know what would be a good split, though, or maybe situational? Not sure what the best option would be. But even if McClover just spells Rucker (like Wallace did, and then some) to extend his tenure, I'll be excited to see him out there.

True enough. But aren't we (and I mean corporately, not just you and me) often beating our chests about our vaunted DL? Aren't we all guilty of claiming that Peppers, Jenkins, and Rucker are all top tier players? I know I certainly have been.

That is how it came across, but after further review, I'd like to add a caveat, I guess. I don't think for a minute that McClover is Rucker. I think Mac brings a better pass rush (conceiveably) right now than Rucker can, but undeniably is weaker against the run. That will have to be addressed one way or another if/when Rucker retires, and if/when Mac starts getting the lion's share of the snaps. Of course, if Johnson develops well, he may render all of this a moot point.

It does look like a large gamble, no doubt about it. If Jarrett falters, Jake could be looking at another very frustrating year.

 

Yeah, but he was never an elite outside rusher. He was just a very good rusher. He still can be. I don't want to trade (to put it in Madden terms, to relate, even though I haven't played a snap of Madden in about 8 years) an 86 player for a guy with one 93 attribute.


Also, while we talk about the Pep help, honestly I believe that Jenkins being in there helps all of it more than either individually. He's not the best rusher of the 3, but he has all the things that make a DT ferocious with the pass rush - and added with Rucker's technical rush skills, playing his man without endlessly getting taken wide, is that the pair combine to be a big viewblock and push the pocket uncomfortably in. That's where the pressures come in.

Conversely, if the right end is always looping wide, and Jenkins penetrates upfield, that's a cue for the QB to run.

sure, me too.

And when I was talking about getting an elite end in the draft, if that's the way we went, I wanted an impact guy who could make it happen around the edge. More of a McClover than a Rucker. Or rather, more of a Freeney than a Rucker, I guess you could say.

I think when Rucker's sack totals dipped, he ceased to be elite. He didn't fall far, but people in general seemed to think that Rucker was done. He's not been done and the injury is the only concern. I'm guessing mid-season he'll prove to be the same player he was and people will go back to under-appreciating that.

 

Sure, that makes sense, and I don't want that in the long run, either.

I wouldn't disagree with that, either. Rucker's bull rush and inside spin move work exceptionally well when Jenx shoots the A, or even the B gap on passing downs. If nothing else, they probably flush the passer right to Peppers, and I would guess that's by scheme, yes?

Either right, or even perhaps through a seam on the left side of the OL if Jenks can be sealed off by the LG and Ruck can be ridden wide by the LT or even the TE (or a combination of the two), correct?

Just so I'm clear, are you saying this was the general perception, or is this your feeling as well?

 

Just want to clarify my McClover hype...

He's not going to be able to replace Rucker, not at all...

but what he is gonna bring, that we havent had in a while, is fire...energy.

when the DLine's tired, and are in the 2nd half of a game, trying to stop an team that has been throwing all over us, but who's still behind cause their defense sucks, dropping back everytime, McClover is gonna bring us something in that situation we havent had for some time...and combine that with how prepared Jenkins is this year, and we could be onto something dynamic.

and on top of that, McClover represents to me a youth movement of playmakers on D...I'm hoping Thomas Davis breaks out this year and becomes much more of a gamechanger...if he's wrecking havoc, Peppers does what he's supposed to, Jenkins plays up to par, Rucker plays in the sitauations where thinking is required, then McClover can find a niche getting one on one in situations where he excels...in other words, if everything works out, McClover gets a huge opportunity to make big plays. So, if McClover does well, imo, then it means everyone else is working together as they should, and the defense is overall doing well.