justin zwick

stats in Hula bowl:

1-6-1

 

HeadAche, you're predictably confused again. Zwick is a "drop back passer," because he has no mobility and is just a conventional 3/5/7 step drop guy. Being a "natural passer" is altogether different. That means being able to easily and quickly make reads, find the right receiver, and deliver the ball accurately. Despite his high school accolades (one reason I've never paid attention to those), Zwick could never do that at OSU. As I noted, even in '04 when Troy Smith was very raw as a quarterback, Zwick was still worse as a passer both statistically and observationally. Since then Smith has gotten much better as a passer while Zwick seemingly has not.

 

Collin-
I see your point, that's why I asked. It seems to me that Zwick is a bit more highly touted than Basanez and Bell....I also (admittedly) don't know enough about him to consider him a threat to a number 2 spot, but considering the 3rd QB has been a revolving door of sorts (Fasani, Lefors, Basanez), a guy that has some pedigree wouldn't be bad to have around, IMO.

 

A pedigree from high school, though. Zwick had his chances in a good system at Ohio State and couldn't get it done. Meanwhile Basanez at least performed well in the Big Ten, and with a weaker supporting cast.

 

gotcha....preesh

 

since i hadn't stated any opinion and had only pasted some articles, i have a hard time seeing how you came to any conclusion about my mental state as it relates to this topic. predictably, you have once again raced to being a complete ass without having any intelligent reason to do so. so what else is new?

if you want my opinion, which without having ever seen him play and is based solely on google, i would tend to think you right. he's sounds like a guy that had some potential but never showed much, if any, signs of being a winner in college. curious that we would bring him in here. i'm guessing we are doing someone a favor. who knows. who cares.

 

Im not sure that's a fare comment, it was an injury that originally forced Zwick out of the #1 spot as a sophmore. And by the sounds of one of those above articles Ohio changed to a spread offense during that time. Yes he failed to unseat Smith from that spot again with Smiths suspension providing the only opening. But he did step in and played solidly in those two games, a Bowl game V OSU and the following year V Miami OH, so i dont think its fare to say he couldnt get it done. Ive heard people blame the continuous platooning of Smith and Zwick by Tressel for the Texas loss. A game in which both players played badly. Smith was then given the nod and he certaintly had an exceptional year in 2006. Im certaintly not saying Zwick was a better player, his stats are certaintly hard to justify (with the marshall game being his only other standout performance), very average indeed considering his HS pedigree. But he was stuck behind Krenzel as a freshman and injury forced him out his sophmore year. He rarely got a shot when Smith took over.

Obviously its Zwicks NFL prototype size at 6'4" 220 lb frame and noted quick release that makes him an attractive prospect worth developing. He still has a long way to go but its interesting that we brought him in and he impressed enough to bring to camp. At least to me that is, he was a forgotten guy with potential. Plus he's wearing #9, my #. Just another guy to pull for in camp in the end really tho.

 

HeadAche:
The articles you posted praised Zwick and made no mention of his many struggles, so either you chose poorly or you were trying to suggest through them that Zwick was a better passer than I was giving him credit for.

Sure, but he was sucking royally before the injury. The Buckeyes had plenty of talent on offense, but Zwick completed fewer than half his passes in four of his six starts, had more interceptions than touchdowns, and led the team to three straight losses.

It's "fair," not "fare." And he had 2 touchdowns in those 2 games combined, so it's not like he played well. But it was really the Texas game the following week that showed just how limited Zwick was. He started the game and Smith didn't appear until Texas was leading by double digits. Smith almost did bring them back, and that's the point where people finally realized what certain analysts had been saying all along, that Smith was a better quarterback in addition to being a better athlete than Zwick.

The platooning was dumb, because Zwick didn't deserve to play at all, which is what people were saying after that game. They didn't just say that changing quarterbacks was what lost the game for Ohio State, they said that playing Zwick over Troy Smith is what lost it. And the score backs them up on that, as the Buckeyes scored 19 points with Smith under center and 3 with Zwick.

Please tell me you at least know this is bullshit, because the alternative does not look good for you. Zwick started six games before his injury and was horrible. He was also arguably responsible for the Texas loss, and certainly convinced everyone watching in that game that he wasn't as good a quarterback as Troy Smith. The idea that he didn't get chances is absolute nonsense. He had plenty of chances, and he failed as a quarterback.

Despite that prototypical size, Zwick went undrafted and wasn't even signed as an undrafted free agent after the draft. He is not an attractive prospect, he is camp fodder and will have to show something to even make the practice squad.

 

Ya know, debates make more sense when you respond to what I said, not what you said yourself.

For the record, my buddy said because of his build (height especially) and his skill set. Not sure how you read that to mean that his build and his ability were the same thing, but that wasn't what it meant at all.

As to my buddy, he was part of a major college football program before he blew his knees out. He's pretty much lived football from childhood, knows the ins and outs of the game and is very good at evaluating players, the game, you name it.

Honestly though, he doesn't really need me to defend him. Nor does he give a rat's ass about what some guy on a message board thinks of his opinions.

Again, I disagree with him about Zwick vs Smith, but I don't judge the validity of his opinion based on whether it's the same as mine. I respect him and his opinion even though we disagree.

(that's a concept you might want to try at some point)

That paragraph included the phrase "since they first stepped on the field" because I was contrasting the perceptions when they got to OSU, and followed with the statement "didn't translate at the next level".

Zwick was nationally regarded as a recruit, and the articles Headcase posted bear that out. Based on those statements, not sure why you brought up his college stats when it's clear his college career wasn't where the national attention that I was talking about came in.

Again, you didn't really respond to what I actually said, only to your own interpretations (and they were wrong).

Zwick has plenty of talent. So does Smith. So do most guys that get to that level, but talent isn't the whole story.

When I look back at his college career, I'd actually say desire (or lack of it) might have been more his undoing than talent. It's possible that with a break or two here and there and he might have been just as highly touted as Smith, but when the breaks didn't go his way he just seemed to kind of shrug and say "oh well".

When it got down to the nitty gritty, Smith just plain outworked him. And in response, Zwick seemed to pull a Kerry Collins. That, as much as anything, is why I'm not convinced he can be a pro.

For him to succeed at the pro level he's going to have to work his tail off, and even then he'll likely still need a break or two. That's not exactly a path you'd want to project for a guy who previously had the red carpet rolled out for him, only to trip over it.

Ah the old "I work for a national publication and I'm always right" bit. I still don't get why you roll that out. If you have to keep bringing up stuff like this (and throwing in the insulting stuff too) it makes it look like your argument can't hold water on it's own.

You've been wrong before. So have I. So have others. Big deal. I don't get why the message board reputation is that important to you. I just post here for the fun of it myself.

Fans, which is what you and I also are. And again, check the stuff Headcase posted. You haven't really responded effectively to that so far.

In any case, nice job of fishing, but I'm not biting today. I've got better things to do than get into a seven page discussion on a topic where I'm not even disagreeing with you, only talking about a friend who does.

Bottom line: Like I''ve said before, if you want to convince me how smart you are, the least effective path is by telling me how smart you are. Bringing up whatever your job is and calling other people stupid is just weak.

If you really want to convince me you're as intelligent as you say you are, you can prove it by actually talking about football stuff without resorting to citing your job, touting your own intelligence and demeaning other people's opinions.

When you can debate without even once resorting to those tactics, then I'll buy it. Till then, not interested. I'm not that bored.

Feel free to pronounce yourself winner of the debate (as if there actually was one) if it makes you feel better. Makes no real difference to me.

 

His skill set is significantly inferior to Smith's, so no, that is not accurate. That means your friend is making a judgment on "natural passing ability" based on the fact that Zwick is three inches taller. That's obviously nonsense.

I lived with several football players in our suite at UVA and they hardly knew anything, so don't make the mistake of thinking that athletic prowess equates with understanding football intellectually. And clearly if this guy thinks that Zwick is a better pro prospect than Troy Smith, he's not very football savvy at all, because that's nonsense. And I mean that. It's not just something we can reasonably disagree about. It's so obviously dumb that it's not even worth considering.

Look, I'm not saying he's lacking football knowledge because I disagree with him. I'm saying that he lacks it because his position is so utterly stupid. It's not just that I disagree, but that it's obviously false and indefensible. Anyone who thinks that three extra inches of height makes someone a better natural passer simply doesn't know what they're talking about.

Yes, I did. I pointed out that even as far back as 2004, Troy Smith was the better passer. There was never any point "from the moment that they stepped on campus" that Zwick was better. Smith was better back then, and he's continued to improve while Zwick apparently has not.

No, he doesn't. If he had plenty of talent then he would have been drafted because he has the size. If Jeff Rowe and Tyler Thigpen could get drafted, someone with Zwick's size should have been drafted as well if he was perceived to have the requisite talent. He doesn't. You're making assumptions based on how he was rated in high school, which is obviously ludicrous.

No, it isn't. Zwick had chance after chance on a team with considerable offensive talent. He simply isn't good.

Wrong, and this again shows just how little you know. Zwick was known as a hard worker and locker room leader at OSU, he just didn't have the talent on the field to beat out Smith.

No, I'm not always right because I am published nationally. My opinion carries far more weight than yours or your friend's because I've proven for six straight years that I know what I'm talking about. I brought up the national publication point to show that I'm not just pretending that I've been correct about every college QB to enter the NFL over the last six years. You can actually go and check what I've written to verify that claim.

Not about QB prospects, I haven't. Someday I certainly will be, and I've made plenty of mistakes on prospects at other positions, but my accuracy rate is still impressive. And while that doesn't mean I'm correct on everything I ever say about a QB, it means that you ought to give my analysis more weight than some bumfuck friend of yours who happened to play college ball.

Sure, I have. I acknowledged that he was touted in high school. The fact that you're hinging your friend's argument on Zwick's high school performance is evidence of its idiocy and your own stubbornness in defending such an obviously ridiculous position.

The fact that you reject or accept opinions based on who is nicest to you explains a lot about why you're so frequently wrong.